Daytona Beach Tour

Right- it would "save" him thousands but with toonces it is 30 multi hours vs 135 and the opportunity to get a job flying multis with better pay and opportunities than a lot of FBO's. ATP is multi time and that is better in ANY market. To deny that is to put your dislikes in front of reality.

ALSO- ATP is geared for the professional pilot, most FBO's are not. I have instructed at several- I know.
 
Good to see some of you have made a comment.
I enjoy reading all of these comments. I may not reply as though I took your comment seriously, but honestly I am. I wish that did have the time, and the resources to buy a 150. That would be ideal. I live short final for an FBO in my town, so finding an airport is no such problem. I also get discounts on Oil, and fuel since I work at the airport. I have an A&P in the family and extended family members who could give me flight instruction.
That would be a great way to do it, and I have been trying to save my money and work as much as I can, but the only factor holding me back really is University.
Personally I enjoy university and have made a great deal of friends and I want to finish my 4-year degree. Whether is be on campus or online.
If I did ATP I could transfer to an online business degree. In which I could do ATP 90 program and be a flight instructor afterwards. I would be earning multi hours, an education, and a paycheck to help pay the monthly payments off of my loan.
And who ever posted about my parents serving me my ATP bill on a silver platter can stick it up their (insert word here). Don’t get me wrong here, I am grateful for all of your comments, and keep them coming. I am just finding it sort of funny how much 'some' of you guys are generalizing. Thinking that wow, that 'kid' is going to waste his money away, and end up being a 250 hr day dreamer who will never get on with any regional or corp. plane. In the long run it comes down to personality, and politics. For you saying that I "have some seriously unrealistic expectation about what will happen after ATP" you are slightly incorrect. Sure I may have high expectations, but doesn’t everybody? That is what makes people different from everybody else. The people who are motivated, and not lazy, and who work their as$ off are the ones who obtain their high expectations.
And after ATP if I cannot get a job... So be it.
There are plenty of places hiring. I like aviation because it’s exciting, and adventuresome. Go to Morocco? Libya? Chad? Congo? Niger? South Africa? Mexico? Afghanistan? Iraq? South America? And Europe to if you have a JAA.
The options are there my elder.
I am motivated, and I am young.
See you in the air my friend
And yes he does have some seriously unrealistic expectations about what will happen after ATP.
 
10 - 15 years would be my guess.
Can not say i plan on taking that long though.
And i deffinetly do not plan on flying reginal for very long either.
Math will more less be on my side for this one.
[/quote]

Having a plan when it comes aviation in general can be seriously unrealistic. You wanna hear my plan, and remember one thing anybody that goes through ATP successfully has to be motivated. My plan in November '07. Start ATP in December '07 in the private pilot program finish the ACPP around May '08. After that complete the RJ course and then go to the Regionals. After that move up to Capt. in 2-3 years and hopefully be at Delta by the time I'm 35.

Now reality. I started ATP in December 07 and finished in May '08. I got to watch the big hiring boom for about 3 months and then oil goes to $147 a barrel and about the time that I finish the RJ hiring doesn't slow down, it shuts down completely. So at this point I have been in the aviation industry for 10 months and my plans are already derailed. All I'm saying is the best laid plans fall apart very quickly.

I'm not saying you shouldn't go to ATP. I am glad that I went there. The level of standardization is probably the best in the flight training world. Just don't expect to be making good money and flying jets immediately after you are done or even within 2 years of getting done. At this point in time I am glad that I had to instruct. I've learned more in 2 weeks instructing then I did at ATP. Anyways.... my .02 cents take it for what it's worth.
 
Right- it would "save" him thousands but with toonces it is 30 multi hours vs 135 and the opportunity to get a job flying multis with better pay and opportunities than a lot of FBO's. ATP is multi time and that is better in ANY market. To deny that is to put your dislikes in front of reality.

ALSO- ATP is geared for the professional pilot, most FBO's are not. I have instructed at several- I know.

$30+ thousand extra for some multi time eh? When you finish all your ratings you will have to build more than 250 hrs to get a job these days. Why not get the rest of your desired multi time utilizing an MEI rating. If push comes to shove you can buy a 50 or 100 hr block from Aviator and still save 20k or more. I would rather get PAID to build my multi time.

As far as ATP being geared towards being a "pro" pilot, thats B.S salesman babble. The airlines only care that you have the time and the tickets. I promise you whatever they teach you at ATP when it comes to flying a piston twin will not help you very much when it comes to learning how to fly an RJ in the 121 world. But hey, the guy that owns ATP has a boat payment to make. Feel free to contribute.
 
Right- it would "save" him thousands but with toonces it is 30 multi hours vs 135 and the opportunity to get a job flying multis with better pay and opportunities than a lot of FBO's. ATP is multi time and that is better in ANY market. To deny that is to put your dislikes in front of reality.

ALSO- ATP is geared for the professional pilot, most FBO's are not. I have instructed at several- I know.

Let me hit your points here. ATP does not pay any more then an FBO pays. You can make a lot more at an FBO then you can at ATP anyday. With that you truely will have days off and make your own schedules for the most part. In addition many FBO's have started getting twins. The FBO I went through the summer before I went to ATP did over 500 hours in the months of June-September. Only one MEI to do that time. Thus he got over 500 hours in the summer. That Multi would have been mine if I was there. Plus he got paid 30 an hour to do so. Anyways. Thus the fact of the matter is Multi use to matter. It use to matter a LOT. However now many have made it through with as little as 10 multi engine time. Multi time means NOTHING when it comes to flying a jet. It in all honestly comes down to stick and rudder and ability to have a great foundation of of instrument knowledge. Regardless I would have to agree with you to disagree.

Secondly ATP maybe geared towards airline pilots, but trust me nothing during the ACP course makes you set for an airline. Until you are there you have no clue. Ground school can be done if you went to college and take it serious. Because you did your stuff in 90 days and use a checklist does not make atp geared towards the airline world. Regardless many FBO's have a professional course. They make pilots and great aviators who can go out and instruct. You get your instructor ratings at ATP to be an instructor, not an airline pilot ;)! Just a wild thought!
 
Young man, you or your financial backer don't have money to "throw away". Throw away being the operative phrase.

I, too, had planned on attending ATP however, when I started doing a little bit more research I found other schools that were just as capable and in some instances better in terms of costs. 57K plus any incidentals is alot of money. Think about it.

I have found a flight school that will cost me approximately 47-52K when it's all said and done. This includes all my training (SE for PPL, approx 40-50hrs) then it's all ME thru CFII/MEII. Over 200 hours of actual ME time, no simulators, and it includes housing. Check rides, manuals and books are extra. That's par for the course. Oh yeah, btw, this school offers transcontinental XC's as well. ATP advertises 190 of ME which I found out later that 60 of that was in a sim.

Now by no means am I bashing ATP. They are a premier institution. I'll tell you what others have told me..."The airlines couldn't give a rat's ass where you got/get your licenses and ratings" just as long as you have them and all of your information is proper and in order.

All the best.

Blue skies.



atp
 
It's obvious that many folks already have their minds made up about ATP and flight training in general.

Good, bad, indifferent.

ElephantPilot came on here looking for suggestions and questions to ask regarding attending ATP. It obvious that he has done some research on what he thinks will work for himself and his personal situation.

Many people think that by bashing a persons decisions is a way to help them... I think differently. I believe that it's important for the future of our profession that we be supportive of others who have the desire to get into this profession.

To me it sounds like you are full of excuses. If you really want to get your training done you will get it done. You should want to start today. There is no reason not to. I worked a full time job, was a full time students, and had a campus job. Oh and my job included running a youth center on the east side of Indianapolis, while being an Resident Assistant at school, studying, having a girlfriend, and still finding time to have fun on the side. Oh and my training through an FBO cost me about 30k. I've instructed with ATP. I cannot honestly say that any of your arguements about ATP are even valid. You plan on paying back your loans quicker then 10-15 years? Ok so you realize for the 1st 5 years or so you will be barely making 30k as an FO? Honestly upgrades of 2 years are gone. You wont see them anywhere. Plus ontop of that, no one is hiring and let alone when they do start hiring if you have the minimums (ME) that's really all that matters. In the end landing a job is truely upon your personality and if you are liked or not. Something you either have, or you dont. Nothing in which ATP can offer. You really would benefit from doing a SEARCH on here and also taking time to learn from those who are telling you to look else where. Especially since you stated you are in college and are 20 years old! You are entirely too young to go 60k into debt. You really need to take time and listen to people on here, instead of thinking you know it all. We were all there once, and many of us were able to find ways to do things cheaper based on fellow members kind words of wisdom.

Paul,

I know we've spoken before, and I know your a fairly good guy. But you have to understand that not everyone is you... and not everyone will accomplish the same things as you in the same way. Not everyone's circumstances, beliefs, learning habits, financial situation, and goals are the same as yours.

You've obviously had some issues with ATP and you've communicated your feelings about that many times in multiple forums here on JC. After a while though, due to the repition, your story's meaning get's lost and folks may start to think that you are just a jaded pilot with a bone to pick.

Just as an example... Many of your observations and "absolutes" about ATP and even FBO's are false... from my perspective, and I'd happily argue them with you. But remember that I'm stating "from my perspective", and that's key to this whole thing. The fact is... there's not a lot of absolutes in this industry and simply telling people "the way it is" doesn't always work, usually because you are telling folks the "way it is" from your personal perspective, based on your own experiences and background, and that is not necessarily the way it will be for others.

The best advice we as professional pilots can give folks is to simply have them do their homework, and get the facts from each institution they wish to pursue and compare those facts so that they can make a determination as to what course of action will work best for them and their personal situation.

Mentoring is not always "do it my way, it worked for me" or "don't do it the way I did... it didn't work for me", rather, it's about helping the individual learn what will work best for them... and encouraging them to pursue that course action, because you know they will thrive better in that environment. For those parents out there... you can completely understand this point. ;)

Even Don (DE727) understood this when he and I used to have our in-depth discussions about life, liberty and the pursuit of the aviation dream...

Anyway... just an observation.

Stay safe...

Bob
 
Bob with all due respect you are a mentour with ATP yourself. I respect what you do for that program but you have strong and deep ties with that program. Myself I am here to offer many different views. If you have followed many of my post, as you have stated you have done so, you would also realize that I have many times recommended people to go to ATP. However the fellow member posted a question about a tour. At which time I went to take a look over his under 20 post. I noticed the question had not been posted here. Thus by offering another suggestion to him as far as an FBO route I found to be fair.

In all honesty he is a 20 year old prospective pilot. That's great. I wish him nothing but the best and would be willing to help him in whatever way. However if he also has the means to go to ATP I would want him to also hear about other ways in doing training as well. By merely suggesting other alternatives I was simplying hoping to let him see another way of doing training. In addition a way of saving him 30k plus while doing so.

As you know as well as many others out there at the end of the day all that matters is if you have the ratings. It does NOT matter if you went to ATP and did their program. You may feel as if what I have to say about ATP is lost. However in many circumstances I have told people to go to ATP and get a written, get a CMEL add on, do the CFI's. However when a poster obviously has no intention of starting a program until 2009! Summer of that I find it a great opportunity to let them know that he could start today! Even if its only once per week. He easily could have an PPL/IRA and doing x/c time by the time he would have ever thought of going to ATP. In addition he could have other items knocked out and ready to get the commercial and CFI's out of the way. Who knows at which time he could go to ATP and do the total instructor course!

Bob you can agree to disagree. You went to ATP, you have strong ties, you talk to those people up there on a regular basis. If perhaps by me posting has lost them some business I do not apologize. In the end if I helped only one person save a lot of money, which I know I have saved more then one, and they get their training done cheaper and for half the price I also feel great about that. However there again are many times I will recommend ATP. I have done so in the past and will do so in the future. However certain programs Bob I simply will not do. Much as we agree to disagree about the CRj Course!

At the days end if one wishes to become a pilot and pursue a professional career in such we all know there are many ways to go abotu it. There is not one absolute. Nor in the end is there a certain way for everyone as we both know. My goal and I know yours as well is to help prospective students along and to aid them in any way as they get their feet into this interesting career. Also at the days end Bob, being a married man with children you too should perhaps encourage such kids, 20 years of age, to enjoy the time while they are young. Enjoy the college life and then when they are done with that, try to let them understand they have the rest of their life to work.


At the end of the day I know during my time of at least 3-4 students who thought they'd get hired at 240 hours and all their ratings. At the end of the day I know of at least 2 of them who have 70k in debt and are currently not even flying because they have that loan to pay on. All of which whom will admit they were not fully informed about things before they went.
 
A very respectful response... and it's appreciated.

I've definately kept up with your posts and those of others here on JC. While not as physically active as I once was... I do attempt to keep up to speed on pulse of JC.

At the end of the day I know during my time of at least 3-4 students who thought they'd get hired at 240 hours and all their ratings. At the end of the day I know of at least 2 of them who have 70k in debt and are currently not even flying because they have that loan to pay on. All of which whom will admit they were not fully informed about things before they went.

This is partly what I was referring to. Your experiences are far different from my own... and may be different from others as well. While not discounting those experiences, that's the "perspective" issue I was talking about.

It's obvious that this is a slow time in the industry... but for your 2 guys, I have a dozen friends and several more acquaintences who are now Captains at Regionals or employed at Major's & Corp. Charter. Many of whom went to ATP, and many others who went a different route. Arguing one persons experience and path is akin to the ol' "how much Total Time makes your knowledge and experience worth more?" argument.

While I have chosen to be a Mentor on beanairlinepilot.com, a site sponsored by ATP... I challenge anyone to find any statements from me telling folks that ATP is the way to go for everyone. Quite the contrary, I feel the same responsiblity there as I do here on JC... telling folks to research their options and then decide what route is best for them, regardless of what they hear on web forums from folks who they may or may not know... including myself.

As for my parenting... I do hope to give them the advice that you are stating... and I feel I went into parenthood with as much knowledge as I could snag. But... not unlike this industry... I'm learning new things every day that amaze me. Truth be told, my kids may not always take my direction and advice... but I do hope to let them know that they always have options and to pursue those options with an open mind after they've researched what they feel will be right for them. Sound familiar? ;)

Thanks for humoring me for a while...

Bob
 
Captain Bob is absolutely correct...look for a program that works best for you and your situation. ATP worked really well for me because I was leaving my new born baby and wife to do the training. Local FBOs had already failed for me. Buying a membership in a flight club didn't work. ATP worked well...
Yes Bob is a mentor and gave me a lot of really good advice and helped me make a decision on A CAREER not a flight school. He has a great mind and is always looking to help.
I instructed at ATP as well...by choice for almost 2 years. It was a good experience and I met a lot of good people. Yeah my hundreds of hours may have been over kill while getting my airline job, the future airline pilots coming down the pipe are going to need it. They days of 500 and 50 or even 25 multi are gone. People are going to need to be competitive in the future which means minimums will no longer be the standard. <edited>
 
A respectful and diplomatic disagreement (with no hurt feelings, tears or bloodshed) has no place on the internet! Please take a time-out and come back swinging, both of you!
 
Thanks for humoring me for a while...

Bob

Isnt that what we are here for at the end of the night Bob. When we are sitting in that hotel room and need a laugh :)!

Anyways we I think agree in many regards to be honest. There are different routes and for different people certain ways work. Again we both in many regards will recommend people to do the FBO route, or perhaps a Skymates, and to some others the ATP route. However it just depends. In the end you and I also I think agree the days and times will be changing in the 121 world where the 250 hours just will not cut it. Thus the rush to get there right now perhaps isnt the best ideal. Saving money at the days end is always a good thought and I think anyone would agree with that. Yet I know for yourself there are many reasons, the family for one, as to why you went to ATP and its great it worked for you. Many of those whom did go with you also are Captains due to the time you went. Unfortunately many of those going now, very well could be FO's for a good 3-5 years and living on FO pay and having to pay back loans on that.

And of course at the days end we both have the same goal in mind. Yet I was more so trying to provide another alternative for this Jcer to look into. Simply all I was going for. As we all remember when we got the itch we wanted to FLY ASAP! So figured maybe starting now would sound rather appealing to him.
 
Young man, you or your financial backer don't have money to "throw away". Throw away being the operative phrase.

I, too, had planned on attending ATP however, when I started doing a little bit more research I found other schools that were just as capable and in some instances better in terms of costs. 57K plus any incidentals is alot of money. Think about it.

I have found a flight school that will cost me approximately 47-52K when it's all said and done. This includes all my training (SE for PPL, approx 40-50hrs) then it's all ME thru CFII/MEII. Over 200 hours of actual ME time, no simulators, and it includes housing. Check rides, manuals and books are extra. That's par for the course. Oh yeah, btw, this school offers transcontinental XC's as well. ATP advertises 190 of ME which I found out later that 60 of that was in a sim.

Now by no means am I bashing ATP. They are a premier institution. I'll tell you what others have told me..."The airlines couldn't give a rat's ass where you got/get your licenses and ratings" just as long as you have them and all of your information is proper and in order.

All the best.

Blue skies.



atp

What school is that?
 
I can accept ATP being the best choice for some people is some situations. Maybe you live in the boonies with no other options and just HAVE to do it all in 90 days (which I think is bad....ad nasuem...do a search...)

What bothers me is guys that try to make it what it's not. It's not exceptional training like FSA, it's not something that you couldn't do at an FBO with a twin, and it's not something that will make "the airlines" drool over your resume. It's part 61 training at a big academy that knows how to get guys through in min time with min experience. They got it down to a science (not that is necessarily a good thing, in my view)

I've been watching the ATP forum since before it even exisited. What really amazes me is the number of people that touted the place to the point of foaming at the mouth when they were there. But then hit real life outside the bubble and either have a negative opinion of the place or are neutral to the point of not bothering to post. I kinda think that speaks volumes.

But in any case, do your homework. Visit the site you are thinking of. And study your butt off. The key to flight instruction anywhere is you, the CFI, and the airplane, in that order.
 
150 with mid-time engine 20k
150 hrs dual from free lance instructor @ $25 per hr for pvt, instr, com multi $3750
Duchess rental 20hrs for multi commercial $4000
Single commercial ad on with 20 hrs in 172rg $2100
American flyers CFI, CFII academy $4000
MEI ad on with 10 hrs dual instruction $2250
fuel for 150 - 5 gph @ $5 per gallon x 230 hrs. $5750

Total $41,000

Then sell the 150 when done.
$41,850
-$20,000
= $21,850 total spent, plus examiners fee.

Every rating possible for under $25k. Yeah I must be crazy.

ATP $57,495

Over $30,000 more and that doesn't include the instructor ratings.

Instead of listening to salesman from ATP or a punch of 250 hr wonders, why don't you pay more attention to people who have been there and done that.

I would love to see a 152 that is IFR and has a mid time engine for $20k

I would love to see a CFI that will dedicate themselves to training someone all the way through CFI for $3750

What about tied down/hangar fees? Maintenance? (that old 152 isnt guaranteed to fly 100 hours or so mx free!)

Also, where are you expecting to get the 172 RG and the twin? The CFI is a freelance and no flight school will allow outside CFI's to teach in their aircraft.

And... at ATP you do get your CFI, II, and MEI.

I agree to a point with what you are saying, but I know it would end up costing quite a bit more than $25,000. youre over simplifying a little.

ATP is great program. I did it, I instructed there for over a year, and I would still recommend it to anyone that can afford it.
 
I would love to see a 152 that is IFR and has a mid time engine for $20k

I would love to see a CFI that will dedicate themselves to training someone all the way through CFI for $3750

What about tied down/hangar fees? Maintenance? (that old 152 isnt guaranteed to fly 100 hours or so mx free!)

Also, where are you expecting to get the 172 RG and the twin? The CFI is a freelance and no flight school will allow outside CFI's to teach in their aircraft.

And... at ATP you do get your CFI, II, and MEI.

I agree to a point with what you are saying, but I know it would end up costing quite a bit more than $25,000. you're over simplifying a little.

ATP is great program. I did it, I instructed there for over a year, and I would still recommend it to anyone that can afford it.

http://www.aso.com
Found a couple cheap 150/152's here.

The $3750 came from multiplying $25 per hr times 150 hours of dual. I bet a lot of instructors would work for much less.

As far as MX is concerned. You could throw the whole plane away and buy another and still save money over ATP. Are you kidding me? No I am not simplifying things. I know people who have done exactly what I described. You seem to want to complicate things.

At the pilot factories, people miss out on the fun in time building. I had a blast flying all over the place and turning my time building into vacations. You can't do that at ATP. I bet the plane has to be back in a few hours or at least by the next day. The best part of my career was doing time building flights with friends, family and my woman. The academies ruin the fun. Do whatever you want to do. There are cheaper more enjoyable options available.
 
At the pilot factories, people miss out on the fun in time building. I had a blast flying all over the place and turning my time building into vacations. You can't do that at ATP. I bet the plane has to be back in a few hours or at least by the next day.
Hmmm... I had a blast time building...

Captain_Bob said:
Here's an example of my logbook entry during my XC experience, coast to coast and almost border to border:

Multi XC:

GKY-CNM-GKY Carlsbad, NM (went to the Caverns)
GKY-SGF-ARR Springfield, Aurora, IL, saw an airshow in progress
ARR-SGF-GKY Ditto
GKY-NQA-GKY Old Navy Memphis, saw the Memphis Belle being restored. What a beautiful plane.
GKY-MLU-NQA-GKY
GKY-CNM-IWA The start of a long week... Out to Phoenix
IWA-RAL-SAC Riverside, Sacremento, Flew up V27 a beautiful coastal route, rented a car and stayed the night in San Francisco
SAC-SLE-SAC Woke up at 5am to make our 7am show time back in SAC, then up to Salem, Oregon and back, Salem is gorgeous! Did the Crater Lake Tour with ATC on the way back, this was an awsome site.
SAC-RAL-IWA-ELP Riverside, Phoenix, El Paso (vectored over Juarez Mexico for RWY 4)
ELP-MAF-GKY Midland TX
GKY-AXH-SJT-GKY Houston Southwest, San Angelo
GKY-MEI-CRG Meridian MS, Craig (JAX) for CFI school
CRG-TPF Tampa FL for my CFI Ride
TPF-CRG
CRG-FTY Fulton County (Atlanta)
ATL-CRG
RDU-ATL Raliegh-Durham
FTY-MLU-GKY Monroe, LA
YMMV. :)

Bob
 
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