Daytona Beach Tour

ElephantPilot

New Member
I am going on a tour at the Daytona Beach, Fl. ATP location early next week. Does any one have any suggestions on some good questions i could ask them? I plan to attend atp nearing the end of the 2009 summer.:D
 

meyers9163

Well-Known Member
Yeah ask them if you can give them 30k for the program as that's all its worth. No seriously if you are waiting until end of then perhaps you should look through an FBO. You will save a crap load of money and also can start today!
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
If I had it to do over again, I would buy a 152. I would get a freelance instructor and do my private, instrument, and time building in the 152. I would build about 230 hrs in the 152 then I would then do my commercial multi at an FBO. When finished with that I would consider the state of the industry before I did a single commercial ad on. I would probably get it anyway if it were me. American flyers has a good deal on the CFI CFII. I think it is 3 or 4k for both. That includes 20 hrs dual, unlimited use of sims and 120 hrs or ground instruction. Last I would do the MEI ad on and sell my 152. You could probably do it this way for up to 20k cheaper than ATP.

Avoid the academies. The airlines only care that you have the tickets. They could care less how much you paid for them.
 

ElephantPilot

New Member
Well sure. Buying a single engine aircraft would be a great idea. That is, lets say... if I had the time!
The one great thing about ATP is the amount of time that you get all of your ratings, and well the multi time of course.
Looking at the 'big' picture, buying a 172 or 140 would take too long. I am 20 years old and will be finished with my second year at the start of the summer in 2009. While I go to school full time and have two jobs. One is a part time job at my school. The other one is a 32-hour a week job at the local FBO near my home. Just trying to find enough time to study and maintain 3.5GPA in all my classes is tricky enough.
I find that even though ATP is 'overpriced' (you could say...) it seems like a great program, and the time it takes you to become Multi CFI, COMM, ME, etc.... it is amazing.
Personally I think that starting atp at the end of the summer and finishing by Dec 1, and then starting my junior year of business 'online' through UF in January will give me a great deal of time to instruct while going to school and paying off my loan. Since the program through UF is an online degree I will be able to work anywhere in the USA as a flight instructor, and maybe even at ATP?
I think this would be a great plan. And for my current status it works perfectly.
It sure would put me ahead of the gang, as well as I would be gaining heaps of experience under my size 29” belt.
Just some words for thought, I suppose.
Adios.
Both Negative and Possitive Advice and/ or Comments are welcome.:yeahthat:

If I had it to do over again, I would buy a 152. I would get a freelance instructor and do my private, instrument, and time building in the 152. I would build about 230 hrs in the 152 then I would then do my commercial multi at an FBO. When finished with that I would consider the state of the industry before I did a single commercial ad on. I would probably get it anyway if it were me. American flyers has a good deal on the CFI CFII. I think it is 3 or 4k for both. That includes 20 hrs dual, unlimited use of sims and 120 hrs or ground instruction. Last I would do the MEI ad on and sell my 152. You could probably do it this way for up to 20k cheaper than ATP.

Avoid the academies. The airlines only care that you have the tickets. They could care less how much you paid for them.
[/quote]

Yeah ask them if you can give them 30k for the program as that's all its worth. No seriously if you are waiting until end of then perhaps you should look through an FBO. You will save a crap load of money and also can start today!
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
Sounds like you already convinced yourself. Have fun paying back the extra 20k or so. How much "time" do you think that will take?
 

ElephantPilot

New Member
10 - 15 years would be my guess.
Can not say i plan on taking that long though.
And i deffinetly do not plan on flying reginal for very long either.
Math will more less be on my side for this one.
Well sure. Buying a single engine aircraft would be a great idea. That is, lets say... if I had the time!
The one great thing about ATP is the amount of time that you get all of your ratings, and well the multi time of course.
Looking at the 'big' picture, buying a 172 or 140 would take too long. I am 20 years old and will be finished with my second year at the start of the summer in 2009. While I go to school full time and have two jobs. One is a part time job at my school. The other one is a 32-hour a week job at the local FBO near my home. Just trying to find enough time to study and maintain 3.5GPA in all my classes is tricky enough.
I find that even though ATP is 'overpriced' (you could say...) it seems like a great program, and the time it takes you to become Multi CFI, COMM, ME, etc.... it is amazing.
Personally I think that starting atp at the end of the summer and finishing by Dec 1, and then starting my junior year of business 'online' through UF in January will give me a great deal of time to instruct while going to school and paying off my loan. Since the program through UF is an online degree I will be able to work anywhere in the USA as a flight instructor, and maybe even at ATP?
I think this would be a great plan. And for my current status it works perfectly.
It sure would put me ahead of the gang, as well as I would be gaining heaps of experience under my size 29” belt.
Just some words for thought, I suppose.
Adios.
Both Negative and Possitive Advice and/ or Comments are welcome.:yeahthat:
[/quote]

Sounds like you already convinced yourself. Have fun paying back the extra 20k or so. How much "time" do you think that will take?
 

Kleigh

New Member
ElephantPilot,

Going to ATP is a great experience. You will enjoy DAB and the PA-44. You will get some practical experience in a really busy place. The multi time will be worth the money, and you can count on that.

Buy a plane? :whatever:
 

ElephantPilot

New Member
Exactly eh.
This seems like a much more plausible idea.
I am only visiting DAB to see the planes, and ask a few questions since it is near home. I am hoping to go to Sacramento for my training.
Have you completed ATP?
ElephantPilot,

Going to ATP is a great experience. You will enjoy DAB and the PA-44. You will get some practical experience in a really busy place. The multi time will be worth the money, and you can count on that.

Buy a plane? :whatever:
 

DL31082

Well-Known Member
Going to ATP was a great experience. I met a lot of people that I now consider good friends. Yes you can do it much cheaper at an FBO but it will take more time then it will at ATP. I would at least get your Private at an FBO if you dont already have it. Kliegh right about the multi time, you won't get that anywhere else. The only thing that I really regret is the loan that I now have. You may plan to only be at a regional for a short period of time, but I think pretty much everyone has that plan. Anyways, good luck with your training and have fun!!!
 

ElephantPilot

New Member
I can not wait. It is a while away, but i think its going to be a surreal experience. Yes, i already have my PPL and a fair amount of IFR training. No multi yet, which i am really excited about trying.
I think i might knock out the Exams sometime soon so that i have them passed and done with before i head to ATP.
Did you do the test before you went to ATP?
How was your experience at ATP, did you work there afterwards as a CFI?
Did you have to answer phones before teaching CFI in a multi a/c?:confused:


Going to ATP was a great experience. I met a lot of people that I now consider good friends. Yes you can do it much cheaper at an FBO but it will take more time then it will at ATP. I would at least get your Private at an FBO if you dont already have it. Kliegh right about the multi time, you won't get that anywhere else. The only thing that I really regret is the loan that I now have. You may plan to only be at a regional for a short period of time, but I think pretty much everyone has that plan. Anyways, good luck with your training and have fun!!!
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
150 with mid-time engine 20k
150 hrs dual from free lance instructor @ $25 per hr for pvt, instr, com multi $3750
Duchess rental 20hrs for multi commercial $4000
Single commercial ad on with 20 hrs in 172rg $2100
American flyers CFI, CFII academy $4000
MEI ad on with 10 hrs dual instruction $2250
fuel for 150 - 5 gph @ $5 per gallon x 230 hrs. $5750

Total $41,000

Then sell the 150 when done.
$41,850
-$20,000
= $21,850 total spent, plus examiners fee.

Every rating possible for under $25k. Yeah I must be crazy.

ATP $57,495

Over $30,000 more and that doesn't include the instructor ratings.

Instead of listening to salesman from ATP or a punch of 250 hr wonders, why don't you pay more attention to people who have been there and done that.
 

ElephantPilot

New Member
Well I certainly thank you for your kind words of thought, but it is not like I have not thought of that idea. If you may have missed my speal about my current status that I stated before; I do not have enough time to do that.
I am not saying buying a 150 is a bad idea. Actually it’s a highly logical way to save your money while training, but I am in the middle of obtaining my 4 year bachelors degree. And again that would not be plausible while I go to school full time and work two jobs. Also you may have forgotten the cost of the Annual Inspection, Oil, 50 hr inspection, 100 hr inspection, spare parts, lights, various fluids, rising fuel costs, ramp fees, hanger fees or tie down fees, and most importantly the insurance.


Also, just a note to add: the atp cost does include the CFI ratings.

Also when I finish ATP I will be 21 years old. And already have two years of University done! My last two years of Uni. are online. So that means while I am getting a 4 year degree to move on to the 700' series jets I can work as a CFI?, Regional?, or Corporately (PC-12/ King Air 200). I will have various options once I finish ATP, and I feel as though this is the 'best' way to go about my ratings.

Still think I should buy a 150, eh;)?

150 with mid-time engine 20
150 hrs dual from free lance instructor @ $25 per hr for pvt, instr, com multi $3750
Duchess rental 20hrs for multi commercial $4000
Single commercial ad on with 20 hrs in 172rg $2100
American flyers CFI, CFII academy $4000
MEI ad on with 10 hrs dual instruction $2250
fuel for 150 - 5 gph @ $5 per gallon x 230 hrs. $5750

Total $41,000

Then sell the 150 when done.
$41,850
-$20,000
= $21,850 total spent, plus examiners fee.

Every rating possible for under $25k. Yeah I must be crazy.

ATP $57,495

Over $30,000 more and that doesn't include the instructor ratings.

Instead of listening to salesman from ATP or a punch of 250 hr wonders, why don't you pay more attention to people who have been there and done that.
 

meyers9163

Well-Known Member
To me it sounds like you are full of excuses. If you really want to get your training done you will get it done. You should want to start today. There is no reason not to. I worked a full time job, was a full time students, and had a campus job. Oh and my job included running a youth center on the east side of Indianapolis, while being an Resident Assistant at school, studying, having a girlfriend, and still finding time to have fun on the side. Oh and my training through an FBO cost me about 30k. I've instructed with ATP. I cannot honestly say that any of your arguements about ATP are even valid. You plan on paying back your loans quicker then 10-15 years? Ok so you realize for the 1st 5 years or so you will be barely making 30k as an FO? Honestly upgrades of 2 years are gone. You wont see them anywhere. Plus ontop of that, no one is hiring and let alone when they do start hiring if you have the minimums (ME) that's really all that matters. In the end landing a job is truely upon your personality and if you are liked or not. Something you either have, or you dont. Nothing in which ATP can offer. You really would benefit from doing a SEARCH on here and also taking time to learn from those who are telling you to look else where. Especially since you stated you are in college and are 20 years old! You are entirely too young to go 60k into debt. You really need to take time and listen to people on here, instead of thinking you know it all. We were all there once, and many of us were able to find ways to do things cheaper based on fellow members kind words of wisdom.
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
Ramp fees where I trained are $40 per month. You don't need 50 or 100 hr inspections if you are not operating your plane for hire. The annual for a 150 is about $1,000. If you buy a plane that just had one and finish your training in less than a year you will never need to get another one. I really doubt if you buy a good 150 with a thurough pre buy inspection that you will ever have 30k in mx costs for 230hrs of flight time.

I know a ton of guys who couldn't afford to begin paying on their student loans after training. You will barely make enough money to have a crappy studio apartment and eat ramen noodles for the first couple years. You will probably spent the following years trying to recover from the first two. Also, your credit is going to be screwed after missing all of those payments. You can't swing a dead frog 5 feet in any airline crew room and not hit anyone that hasn't experienced what I just described.

Hey, you are 20 years old though. You seem to have it all figured out. Go ahead and do what you are gonna do anyway. I hope for your sake that mommy and daddy are footing the bill. You can't pay bills with multi time.
 

DL31082

Well-Known Member
I can not wait. It is a while away, but i think its going to be a surreal experience. Yes, i already have my PPL and a fair amount of IFR training. No multi yet, which i am really excited about trying.
I think i might knock out the Exams sometime soon so that i have them passed and done with before i head to ATP.
Did you do the test before you went to ATP?
How was your experience at ATP, did you work there afterwards as a CFI?
Did you have to answer phones before teaching CFI in a multi a/c?:confused:

I'm going answer this question and then be done with this thread before it gets out of control.

First off no I did not do any of the written tests before I showed up at ATP. It would definatly help though because in the program after you complete the 302 ride you have 25 days complete 4 written tests. It only becomes hard when you have no time to study due to the fact that your flying 5-8 hours a day on cross countries. My experience was great with ATP but it really did not have to do with ATP. My experience was great because of the people I went through the program with and the awesome instructors that I had. Then again I pretty much stayed under Jim K's radar. The people who didn't had a much rougher time but most of them brought it upon themselves.

No I did not become a CFI for ATP. I now work at a local FBO flying DA20s, DA40s w/G1000's and a mooney. From what I hear all new instructors are getting thrown in the pit to answer phones until a instructing position is available. Anyways if you have any questions you can PM me. I will let you now my experiences and I am not pro-ATP or negative-ATP.
 

DL31082

Well-Known Member
Over $30,000 more and that doesn't include the instructor ratings.

Instead of listening to salesman from ATP or a punch of 250 hr wonders, why don't you pay more attention to people who have been there and done that.
Number 1- The statement that 57,000 doesn't include the instructor ratings is blatantly false. You can easily find out on ALLATPs.com that the CFI ratings are included.

Number 2- Why does everyone on JC hate the "250 hr wonders?" Weren't you in this position at one time? Yeah I might now have enough experience to tell someone how a pack on a CRJ200 works, but I have finished all of my rating. I did go to ATP so I an qualified to let someone know about my experience there. You can look at my past posts and see that I am not an ATP cheerleader and that I tell it like it is. Reading that "250 hr wonder" comments is really starting to get old. Guess what guys these 250 hr wonders are the ones that are teaching at a lot of flight schools both academies and FBOs. I have a feeling that I am going to get flamed for this but instead of bashing us, why don't you help us learn what we need to learn to make the industry better? Sorry just my little rant.
 

meyers9163

Well-Known Member
Well the line 250 hour wonder is false in the first place. Because most who go to ATP have about 210-225 hours ;)! Anyways. The fact of the matter is the above poster is asking about getting his ratings. He cannot start until Summer of 2009. However wants to have an excuse for not going to an FBO and doing the ratings. I for one was in this same position. I was able to go to school and work two full time jobs as well. In addition to other things. Oh and had pleanty of time to find a way to get to the airport and fly nearly 4 times a week. In addition the ideal that this poster is only 20 years of age and is in a rush to get into the industry. The fact of the matter King air jobs and Pillatus jobs are even harder to get then airline jobs. And we all know how hard airline jobs are to find right now. The fact of the matter is perhaps instead of finishing up school online, he could go to college and enjoy being young. He has the rest of his life to work and should enjoy being 21 years old and the college life. He can do that while flying on the side and not being over 65-80k in debt by going to ATP.

As already posted unless mommy and daddy are going to place his ATP bill on a silver platter and pay it for him there may be better alterenatives to his training. Especially when he is from Florida and there are a lot of options for Multi and doing mutli in Florida through a place like Ariben. In the end we are trying to help this poster save money, start today, and understand the industry perhaps a little better. But then again what would i know. I was the 21 year old, college senior when I finished all my ratings within a year. After that I got my CFI's done that summer and started instructing. If not for my degree as I am furloughed right now I highly doubt I'd have the job I was able to get. And as far as even CFI'ng right now in the IndyArea isnt happening. All the FBO's are filled and have no openings, not even for a part timer. Let alone the Kingair jobs and Pillatus jobs are going to guys with 3000TT plus... Sure as heck not me at 1000/700/400+SIC. But perhaps he is more qualified then I am after he gets done with ATP. I dont know. ALL i know for sure is right now I am not qualfied for ANYTHING but going back to my 121 gig once I get the opportunity, if I get it.
 

DL31082

Well-Known Member
Meyers9163- Hey I'm with you on this one. Personally I think that he should do his ratings through an FBO it would save him thousands. The FBO I work for rents our twin for 256 w/the instructor. Thats A LOT better then the 330 that I paid to fly the seminole. That being said the original poster seems to have his mind made up, so at this point I'm just letting him know my experience with ATP. I'm not for ATP, but I'm not against it either. I am willing to share my experiences there with others and let them make their own decision. I'm just tired of hearing the 250 hr wonders junk.
 

DL31082

Well-Known Member
And yes he does have some seriously unrealistic expectations about what will happen after ATP.
 
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