Dallas Executive Mid-Air / B-17 - P-63

fholbert

Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
Don't know what it is about pilots. Someone gets killed and others are looking to place blame.

Put 100 JC members in P-63 simulator (I know) and I'll bet most would have the same outcome. We like to think we're smarter than all other pilots but it just isn't true.
 

Tiptank

Well-Known Member
I’ll speculate a bit, I don’t think Milton looked where he was going before he backed into the street.

The problem with speculating is you often get basic facts wrong. Milton burned the place to the ground and was last seen sipping drinks at a resort in the Carribean.
Tom Smykowski is the character featured in your clip. You started off with false information, much like many do when speculating.
 

Pilot Fighter

Well-Known Member
The problem with speculating is you often get basic facts wrong. Milton burned the place to the ground and was last seen sipping drinks at a resort in the Carribean.
Tom Smykowski is the character featured in your clip. You started off with false information, much like many do when speculating.
Damn, I knew Milton was staple guy.

That said, I’m a little more confident about my speculation about this incident.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Most Hated Member
Put 100 JC members in P-63 simulator (I know) and I'll bet most would have the same outcome. We like to think we're smarter than all other pilots but it just isn't true.
That’s because out of those 100, maybe 2 of them would actually be qualified, and 1 proficient, to engage in this endeavor. And that’s the whole point: a bunch of people are doing this stuff who shouldn’t be.

He’s on the master scab list
Good riddance to him, then.
 

mrivc211

Well-Known Member
You’re not wrong. But I’ve said something similar in the past when innocent bystanders were killed, and you’d have thought I murdered the first born child of everyone on the forum based on their reaction. :rolleyes:

Amateurs doing complicated formation flying is insanity. The Blue Angels is one thing. It serves an actual national purpose for recruiting, and they spend all of their time training and preparing for shows. But when amateurs who occasionally do shows on weekends are involved, it’s very difficult for me to justify the risk. Six families lost someone and a crowd was traumatized. And for what? Nothing of real purpose. I find it tragic. And yes, @Boris Badenov, using your strict definition of tragedy.
I've said the same thing as well. Too many accidents, too many "amateurs". I tried doing a formation flight with a 172 15 years ago and that was scary enough for me. Never tried it again. Airshows should be static displays and the blue angels and thats it. It's always some old war bird accident with the same reaction from everyone.
 

dustoff17

Still trying to reach the Top Shelf
Alright, fair enough.
I take responsibility for the over reaction and I apologize.

(at least we both have intentions to prevent additional body bags)
Thank you for being gracious. I appreciate that more than you might imagine.
Would be nice if all disagreements and differences of opinions here could be handled like this…….
 

form810

The King is Dead. Long live the King!
There’s a bunch of bright folks on here, a number of which have participated in accident investigations.

There’s really only a couple of interesting questions that need to be answered.

I’m betting the investigation will find the following:

- The show plan failed to establish adequate safeguards to maintain separation.

Perhaps there were other radio frequencies in use but I haven’t heard calls to suggest that bombers were to be cleared for their approach only after the fighter fly-by was completed.

- The P-63 pilot, knowing that fighter and bomber parades shared the approximate fly-by path, failed to establish position of the lead B-17. Even if the plan provided for lateral separation between the fighter and bomber fly-by paths, the issues of timing and consequences of the fighters overshooting weren’t adequately considered.

I’m also willing to bet that participants voiced few objections to the plan.

Pilots speculate and often get things right.
I'll agree with all except part of your dash 3.

I'll bet the cobra was sucked and laterally out of position (quite an accomplishment in a a a loose trail "formation"). I'll bet he was instructed to assume lead despite his rather unwieldly and somewhat blind position relative to his gaggle and additional traffic over the runway. And - my main detraction from your otherwise spot on analysis - I'll bet "the issues of timing and consequences of the fighters overshooting weren’t adequately considered" discussed at all during the briefing. I'll further bet that in a nepotism- and good ol' boy-based hierarchy, anybody who raised his hand in the questions portion of the brief would get iced from the flight line most ricki tick... and, therefore, no hands were raised.

I'll add a dash 4 question to be answered... What will the FAA say about what they had to say that day about the briefing?
 
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form810

The King is Dead. Long live the King!
As to should we airshow or should we not?... and should we formation or should we not?... Hell, should we fly or should we not? Should we walk across the street or not? Should we build streets or not?

From a risk standpoint, aviation is no different from any other human endeavor. That said, please understand that the vast majority of human endeavor is completely unconsidered, whack and malignant.

Still, whatever their distraction du jour, it's typically the humans who create the risks - not the activities themselves.

Humans need to be adapted to and prepared for the activities in which they engage. Through intention of will or mindless desire... through precise or inept planning, through planning at all or no planning at all, attentiveness or inattentiveness, greed or consideration, stupidity or intelligence, skill or lack of skill, ego or interest... humans can and do prevail occassionally. But we fail far more often because all the preceding decision trees typically have no roots and no branches.

And then the apathetic bystanders justify our indolence with catchy phrases like, "planning is communist"... again with NO FREAKING IDEA of what planning or communism actually are.

I LOVE "high risk" activities... They cull the herd more equitably and efficiently than any others. Which is to say, I love activities in which a lack of preparation, thought, and competence are rewarded with quick disposition.
 
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Pilot Fighter

Well-Known Member
I'll bet he was instructed to assume lead …
More speculation, but …

That radio call bothers the hell out of me. It sounds like an acknowledgment that things hadn’t gone as planned. It sounds like an acknowledgment that the P-63 was late to party.

I wonder what the contingency for late arrival was. I would expect the plan would include a decision point prior to turning final. If arriving late or loss of visibility of bomber lead, yada yada yada.

Should the air boss be directing traffic at that point? What could the air boss actually see from his vantage point?

If I had been the Big D of the show, I would have inserted a big time interval between fighter and bomber parades with the bombers not turning final until fighter parade was complete.
 

form810

The King is Dead. Long live the King!
More speculation, but …

That radio call bothers the hell out of me. It sounds like an acknowledgment that things hadn’t gone as planned. It sounds like an acknowledgment that the P-63 was late to party.

I wonder what the contingency for late arrival was. I would expect the plan would include a decision point prior to turning final. If arriving late or loss of visibility of bomber lead, yada yada yada.

Should the air boss be directing traffic at that point? What could the air boss actually see from his vantage point?

If I had been the Big D of the show, I would have inserted a big time interval between fighter and bomber parades with the bombers not turning final until fighter parade was complete.
Everything you just said is important and relevant. Also, everything you just said was NOT briefed.

And just BTW, that's not "Big D", but "BSD" to you. Which is extremely appropo when using verbs like "insert".

More seriously and importantly, regardless of what you... or I... would have done, what it appears NOBODY did was in any way to brief any of these potential contingencies. Small brains make for big "accidents". PPPPPPP.... Navy still using 7P?
 
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