Cop Out ComAir

To me, this is another example of journalists that know just enough to be stupid. I'm sure they've never made personal phone calls at work or carried on conversations with co-workers while doing their job. I don't think not talking during the taxi would have made any difference.
 
That is some <screwed up stuff>, for them to say that. To make accusations like that just to sell papers or whatever. Although realizing how many people died
 
Is it even legal to use that recorded conversation against the pilots before the NTSB determines if it was the cause of the accident?
 
The pilots screwed up by taking the wrong runway. If you aren't doing everything possible to be safe/follow procedure, and you do screw up, you are going to be held liable for it. It really would have been a good time for those two to be paying closer attention to the flight.

Knowing the result of their actions it may not be the best time to make a case that 'chatting in the cockpit during taxi is no big deal.' Am I any better? Hell no, but I will try to take some positive steps towards evaluating my own 'policy' knowing what I do now.
 
VDEE7 said:
Is it even legal to use that recorded conversation against the pilots before the NTSB determines if it was the cause of the accident?
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I am no accident scene investigator but... I thought it was pretty clear the runway they mistakenly taxied onto was too short for their aircraft? Is there another school of thought on why the jet crashed?
 
The question isn't why the jet crashed. It's why did they take off on the runway they did. What things led up to them doing that. What factors contributed to them thinking it was the correct runway. What could be done (both physical markings wise and procedurally) that would prevent that from happening again.
 
kellwolf said:
I don't think not talking during the taxi would have made any difference.
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I do.

There's a reason there is a sterile cockpit rule, and it's a good one. When I'm taxiing, I need to concentrate on taxiing, not on my kids being sick, or your dogs, or whether or not I like my job.

They should have known there was construction at the airport -- that's a huge red flag to be vigilant while taxiing. "Not talking" is not the solution -- it's not a silent cockpit, it's a sterile cockpit. They needed to be looking at the taxi diagram, listening to the ground/tower transmissions, and looking at headings, lighting, etc., to confirm what they were doing. Unfortunatey, they seemed to be too busy talking about their personal lives, and the radio calls were distractions.



That attitude didn't seem to change until the "Whoa" immediately after rotation/immediately prior to impacting the berm/fence on depature end of the short runway.


(Yeah, I'm a big advocate of the Sterile Cockpit Rule.)










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TonyC said:
I do.

There's a reason there is a sterile cockpit rule, and it's a good one. When I'm taxiing, I need to concentrate on taxiing, not on my kids being sick, or your dogs, or whether or not I like my job.
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You're letting your experience get in the way there, Tony . . .

;)
 
I dont know if any of you have flown into/out of bluegrass airport, but when I flew out of there, it was pretty confusing. You taxi across the short to the long runway, and the way the taxi way was setup it appeared as though the taxiway on the other side of the short runway lead to nowhere. I think this media production is a bit lame, but honestly even if they hadnt said a word to each other, I doubt that would have mattered in this case
 
TonyC said:
I do.

There's a reason there is a sterile cockpit rule, and it's a good one. When I'm taxiing, I need to concentrate on taxiing, not on my kids being sick, or your dogs, or whether or not I like my job.

They should have known there was construction at the airport -- that's a huge red flag to be vigilant while taxiing. "Not talking" is not the solution -- it's not a silent cockpit, it's a sterile cockpit. They needed to be looking at the taxi diagram, listening to the ground/tower transmissions, and looking at headings, lighting, etc., to confirm what they were doing. Unfortunatey, they seemed to be too busy talking about their personal lives, and the radio calls were distractions.



That attitude didn't seem to change until the "Whoa" immediately after rotation/immediately prior to impacting the berm/fence on depature end of the short runway.


(Yeah, I'm a big advocate of the Sterile Cockpit Rule.)
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Sorry, I still disagree. They weren't violating the sterile cockpit rule when they took the runway, and THAT'S where they messed up. Lack of runway lighting, construction and not checking the numbers on the runway made a bigger deal than a short discussion on the taxiiway. Besides, most of the stuff I read in the CVR about their personal lives wasn't when they were taxiing, but when they were still at the gate. Seemed to be a little confusion in the pre-flight brief as to what the active runway was as well. That should have been crystal clear before pushing back.
 
kellwolf said:
Sorry, I still disagree. They weren't violating the sterile cockpit rule when they took the runway, and THAT'S where they messed up.
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Granted, we're in the arena of opinion here, so it's possible we won't agree. In my opinion, they messed up the taxi. The taxi is where they move the airplane from where it was parked, or where maintenance left them after pushback, to the point where they begin the takeoff roll. The sterile cockpit rule was observed during the takeoff roll, and the airplane performed as it should have performed. The problem is, the taxi was unsuccessful -- it resulted in the airplane being in the wrong place.




kellwolf said:
Lack of runway lighting, construction and not checking the numbers on the runway made a bigger deal than a short discussion on the taxiiway. Besides, most of the stuff I read in the CVR about their personal lives wasn't when they were taxiing, but when they were still at the gate. Seemed to be a little confusion in the pre-flight brief as to what the active runway was as well. That should have been crystal clear before pushing back.
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To be fair, you are correct about the content of the non-essential talking during taxi. The primary topic by that time had switched from kids, colds, and dogs to friends they knew that had interviewed for other jobs. It was still non-essential, and it still distracted them from the task at hand.

What's perhaps more disturbing is the absence of discussion about how to meet the challenges of taxiing at the airport that they knew was undergoing construction, and how to make sure they got to the correct runway. THAT is what they should have been talking about during the taxi. THAT is essential communication.






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TonyC said:
What's perhaps more disturbing is the absence of discussion about how to meet the challenges of taxiing at the airport that they knew was undergoing construction, and how to make sure they got to the correct runway. THAT is what they should have been talking about during the taxi. THAT is essential communication.






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This I will agree with. Doesn't matter if it was before push or during the taxi, should have been a "this is how we're getting there" plan about the construction. We can Monday morning QB this all day, but, unfortunately, it won't change the outcome. Interesting that a new 10-9 page was tossed out almost immediately afterwards, though.
 
If I am not mistaken, Comair, like many other companies, requires the taxi route to be briefed, including any runways crossings and hot spots.
 
The reason the media is taking theis sterile cockpit stuffand running with it, is because "We all know the pilots were irresposible and took off on the wrong runway". It has nothing to do with the contruction and MANY confusing aspects involving lighting and taxi routings. The only thing the media is looing at is the pilots, because "the pilots did it". There are so many other factors at play the f-n media needs to take their blinders off and stop making scapegoats out of the pilots. I will admit that there is a lot of fault to be placed with the crew, but they also need to look at the 10-9 page, the tower staffing, and lighting issues, and I wish the f-n media would lay out the FACTS.

[/rant]
 
OldTownPilot said:
The reason the media is taking theis sterile cockpit stuffand running with it, is because "We all know the pilots were irresposible and took off on the wrong runway". It has nothing to do with the contruction and MANY confusing aspects involving lighting and taxi routings. The only thing the media is looing at is the pilots, because "the pilots did it". There are so many other factors at play the f-n media needs to take their blinders off and stop making scapegoats out of the pilots. I will admit that there is a lot of fault to be placed with the crew, but they also need to look at the 10-9 page, the tower staffing, and lighting issues, and I wish the f-n media would lay out the FACTS.

[/rant]
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Fine. Lighting issues -- the crew knew about them. Construction -- the crew knew about it. Confusing taxi routes -- the crew knew about it. I have a copy of the CVR -- can you give me a time where they discussed a strategy for dealing with the above problems that they knew about? I mean, where did they discuss the need to be careful to find the correct runway through all the confusing taxiways, inoperative lighting, and construction areas?


They didn't do that, because they were too busy talking about other things -- they were distracted from doing their job.





The purpose of the sterile cockpit is to prevent distractions during critical phases of flight. Taxi is a critical phase of flight. I hate inaccuracy in media just as much as the next guy, but I can't blame the media for discussing the violation of sterile cockpit.


Think about the last time you got angry when someone in another car cut you off while they were too busy talking on the cell phone to do their job: drive. Did that upset you? Did you want to tell them to hang up the phone and drive? Well, the same principle applies. When we release brakes to move the metal, we need to hang up the phone and drive.






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