Considering 121

av8tr1

"Never tell me the odds!"
So after years of saying I would never do it I am considering 121. I'd love to hear from anyone who said they would never go 121 and then did. Are you happy with the decision?

I've been ignoring that side of the biz for a while so I'd like to know what the schedules are like. And the typical duty day.

I'm talking with a couple of regionals at the moment on both side of the country. Considering a commute, a bad idea?

What questions should I be asking that I don't know?

(Yeah yeah....I know....some of you told me...)
 
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I was under the impression that you were flying for a company that has a 121 side. Can you stay in the same company?
 
There is a reason the vast majority of people leave for 121 ASAP. The only long term 135 guys I knew had skeletons, like multiple DUIs.
 
Living in base changes the job dramatically. I don’t recommend commuting unless you have a good reason to, those 2 and 3 days off feel very short when you are worried about loads and catching flights to/from work on days off
 
There is a reason the vast majority of people leave for 121 ASAP. The only long term 135 guys I knew had skeletons, like multiple DUIs.

Naw, we have some great guys who just enjoy SPIFR (myself included). Not saying there are not pilots with skeletons who are stuck in 135 but lots of pilots can make an entire career in 135 for good reasons. We have a lot of great guys who like the home every night option of our flying for a verity of reasons.

There are a lot of BAD 135 operations but not all.
 
Living in base changes the job dramatically. I don’t recommend commuting unless you have a good reason to, those 2 and 3 days off feel very short when you are worried about loads and catching flights to/from work on days off

Is the average days off 2-3? Do you take a 2-4 day trip and then automatically get 2-3 days off?
 
Is the average days off 2-3? Do you take a 2-4 day trip and then automatically get 2-3 days off?

Between the two regionals I have been to, the average is 3 at a time. Your seniority and the ability to understand the PBS bidding system plays a key role in the schedule you receive. I have even had a few months where 1 day off would be in between 3 or 4 on. That sucked while commuting as I wouldn’t even attempt to go home. Sometimes you will work up to 8 days in a row as long as you have a 24hr window off, they can mix that in an overnight somewhere. Example.. 4day with a 30 hour overnight back to back with a 3day. Then 2 or 3 off right into another 4day. That is a typical junior schedule lol
 
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Is the average days off 2-3? Do you take a 2-4 day trip and then automatically get 2-3 days off?

You get what you bid for, if you have the seniority, otherwise you get what’s assigned to you. Could be 2-4 or more days off, could be 2 4days back to back, for a long 8 day.
 
I'm still in 135, and I agree with you that it's not (necessarily) the hell on earth that some depict it as being. With that said, I'd need more than my fingers to count the number of guys I know who have gone 121, and without exception they're all glad they did. Just a datapoint.
 
I'm still in 135, and I agree with you that it's not (necessarily) the hell on earth that some depict it as being. With that said, I'd need more than my fingers to count the number of guys I know who have gone 121, and without exception they're all glad they did. Just a datapoint.
Yea, I can't think of one person that has made the switch and wish they could go back.
 
Naw, we have some great guys who just enjoy SPIFR (myself included). Not saying there are not pilots with skeletons who are stuck in 135 but lots of pilots can make an entire career in 135 for good reasons. We have a lot of great guys who like the home every night option of our flying for a verity of reasons.

There are a lot of BAD 135 operations but not all.
Lots of wide body FOs at my company who haven't flown for a month or more. Myself I went over three weeks without working once. Sure beats having to work 4-5 days a week even if they are turns.
 
Yes, yes you did. And for that I owe you a beer.

No beer needed, it makes me happy to see people realize their potential, and think about their career.

I didn't say I would never go 121, but the airline I am at now is my first 121 job. I have done 135 single pilot freight, 135 24/7 craptastic charter, 135 pretty good charter, 135/91k fractional. I had really hoped that flying private jets would have shaped up to be as prestigious for me and other pilots, as it is made to seem. Sadly this didn't happen, and it never happens. The amount of private jet jobs with career earning potential, QOL, retirement etc. that even come close to a career 121 job, can be counted on with one hand. Is airline flying fun? I find some fun in it but I substitute flying fun things in my off time by flying warbirds and aerobatics because I can afford the time and money to do so, because of my121 job. The "home every night" argument with some 135 makes me laugh because I lived the home every night 135 lifestyle. 14 hour duty days but home every night, I didn't see my first born kid awake unless it was the weekend, for several months of her life. I will take 17 days off a month without my phone ringing from the company all day long over that...

Honestly it will be hard for me to ever fly 135 again, heaven forbid the economy tanks enough for me to end up on the street, I would probably just teach aerobatics more and contract fly. My distain in general for 135 is so great that I would almost rather go be a barista than fly charter. I love the mantra that people in the 135 world say, something to the effect of "I have no desire to go to the airlines, and fly to the same 4 places for the rest of my life." These are people that live to work, not work to live. As soon as the mindset changes to "I want as much time off as possible, the easiest work life, and to make as much money as possible with the best possible retirement," the ONLY avenue is 121.

I would recommend you try to live in base if you can. Commuting on reserve, getting a crashpad and all that is going to add a level of stress that you want to try and avoid. That being said, I would have no problem with a small commute at my airline as a line holder.
 
So after years of saying I would never do it I am considering 121. I'd love to hear from anyone who said they would never go 121 and then did. Are you happy with the decision?

I was once considering avoiding 121 (very glad I didn't do that), and probably could have gone to a 121 carrier sooner had I been more aggressive about building night time during my aerial survey days, but then I did go 121 in late 2016. So far I am extremely happy with the decision to go to a 121 and by far my biggest regret in life is not doing it sooner.

I've been ignoring that side of the biz for a while so I'd like to know what the schedules are like. And the typical duty day.

This might vary quite a bit between companies, but this is based on what I've experienced so far. Looking back at this month so far I've had duty days as short as 4 hours and as long as 12 hours; and in the past I've had 14 hour duty days, mostly while on reserve or when there are bad delays (which is often as I'm based in EWR). 4 legs in one days seems to be most common, but it can be anything from 2-5 or occasionally 1 or 6.

Others have mentioned 2 or 3 days off between trips, which might be the most common. I usually try to get as many days off in a row as possible, so I have often gotten it so there's only 1 day between trips, or even no days but enough time that you get the 30 hours' rest part 117 requires in the last 168 hours and then have like a week or more off at once at some point in the month. Of course that all depends on what your airline's bidding system allows and what your seniority can hold. For March I got it so I have only 1 day off between trips for the first part of the month but have the whole last fortnight of the month off.

At most airlines the contract will call for a minimum number of days off per month, usually 11 or 12.

At first you will be on reserve, which at my airline is usually 6 days on, 2 days off.

I'm talking with a couple of regionals at the moment on both side of the country. Considering a commute, a bad idea?

Hard to say whether commuting is a bad idea, as it seems a lot of people don't mind it but others say to avoid it at all costs. I only did it for a month or so before I moved to New Jersey specifically so I wouldn't have to, so I don't have much experience with it. But it seems like it would be a massive pain and make your time off seem much shorter, especially since at first you will probably only have 2 days off at a time while on reserve. So I would recommend living in base you have the opportunity to. But then it might be worth commuting to a regional with significantly better pay, etc. The conventional wisdom is you should never choose a regional based on bases, since they can close at any time and probably will sooner or later. However if they have a base in your home town now, if it closes you will hopefully have accumulated some seniority by then, so if you're stuck commuting at least you might be able to hold a more easily commutable schedule.

Best of luck with your transition to 121. I am glad I did go to a 121 carrier, and frankly it is the best job I've had even though I work at a not-exactly-stellar regional, so I think you are probably making the right decision. As we all know pilots love to complain and I think this is where a lot of the negative perception of 121 comes from.
 
There is a reason the vast majority of people leave for 121 ASAP. The only long term 135 guys I knew had skeletons, like multiple DUIs.

I know people at the majors and mainline who have crashed planes, have DUI's, or have violations. I don't have any of that and I'm quite happy at my 135. I'm choosing to sit tight where I am at the moment.
 
So my big concerns were the crew environment (I had some REALLY bad captains at a previous scheduled 135) and unions.

On the crew side I’m trying to figure out if my personality would fit in an airline crew. I am the sort that people either love or hate. And when they love me they really LOVE me. When they hate me they really HATE me.

At Seaport we had some really great captains who I LOVED to fly with. But then we had some guys who I dreaded going to fly with. Of the three I hated, it was a pretty much unanimous opinion company wide (so it wasn't just me) and since I was flying so little (I was also the company IT director) I pulled the short straw (at best I flew 30 hours a month at K5 most months was much less). But it was a hostile cockpit. All three are at two of the regionals I am talking with and it was bad enough I would not fly with at least two of them EVER.

What are my options for avoiding these types of captains?

How about bidding for schedules? In the past its really been what has been assigned. Other than the base I haven't had much of an option about routes and schedules. So how does the bidding process work at 1121?

Reserve? When you are on reserve is it sitting at the airport all day or home reserve? Is it a bit of both?

I’ll be making a different thread about unions, but basically I’ve been anti union previously but my eyes have been opened and I’m seeing the value.

I'm going to need a whole thread for the questions on unions and how they work. But as it relates to flying 121 as I understand it, you don't get union representation while you are in your probationary period but have to still pay dues. Then what exactly is it they do for you other than pay raises on occasion? What do they do for you individually? Or is it solely a group thing (Phrasing)?
 
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