Complex Endorsement

rhs

New Member
I've got a student who wants to get checked out in our 182RG. He's got a few hours in the fixed-gear 182 but mostly 172 time (~300 hrs).

Does anyone have a syllabus or outline for the complex endorsement? I got mine as part of my private multi but this guy isn't getting an add'l rating or anything. I'm trying to decide how many hours he'll need and what I should cover before I'm 'comfortable' giving him the endorsement.

Thanks!
 
Unless he's a real bonehead, it should take no more than 2-3 hours for a complex endorsement. Same with the time on the ground.

Think back - did you have to learn anything really funky for a complex endorsement? He's already got some Skylane time, so the prop/manifold pressure thing isn't new to him.By having that time (assuming it's legit time), he's probably starting to get pretty comfy in a high performance aircraft. Why not just get him a High Performance and Complex at the same time?

I think it could be done (both of them) in 5 hurs of flight time. At the most.

Use Chapter 11 of FAA-H-8083-3A (Aiplane Flying Handbook).
 
Does he already have a HP endorsement from his previous 182 time? If not, I agree with Lloyd, that shouldn't be too tough to add in. As far as the complex, if it were me, I'd spend some time in the pattern observing his procedure habitsw with the gear and make sure those are good to go. As far as ground instruction, make sure he's got a good grasp of the gear system (maybe not draw it out, but at least know the basics like how the gear comes up, Vle and Vlo and how the gear is held in place) and know what to do if the gear won't retract/come down. Other than that, it shouldn't be that big a deal.
 
In this case, I'd take a day and do a multi hop XC. Each leg empasising something different. (ie. power management, new avionics if any, emergency procedures, flight characteristics, etc) Make it fun and informative at the same time. Spend a couple trips in the pattern at each stop to get plently of up down cycles on the gear and to get the feel for the higher power plane.

The biggest thing with the complex (since he is already HP familiar) is, of course, getting that gear thing engrained in their head. It's not always "down and welded".

But, once again, have fun with it! Something like an upgrade or add on shouldn't be tedious and boring... live it up!
 
This is just my opinion (and I'm still working on my CFI, so take it for what it's worth), but I would only do x/cs if there is new avionics to learn. Emergency procedures, power management, etc can be done on a local training flight with some ground training. I'd say give the student the OPTION of a x/c instead, but keep in mind it will probably be more expensive for the student that way.
 
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This is just my opinion (and I'm still working on my CFI, so take it for what it's worth), but I would only do x/cs if there is new avionics to learn.

[/ QUOTE ]A cross country is not a bad idea for the complex. Or at least a trip to an unfamiliar airport.

Pumping the gear up and down and up and down in the pattern at the home base really doesn't do anything for creating good habits. Pilots don't forget the gear when doing touch and goes. They forget it at the end of a flight when they are busy for landing and get distracted by something.

Especially with the complex, an unfamiliar airport with unfamiliar landmarks can be very distracting. That distraction may be just what the pilot needs to forget the gear. Train at a towered airport? A busy non-towered one is perfect. And vice versa.

A lot of FBOs have minimum time requirements for complex. Usually more than enough to justify a cross country that would be well worth it.

rhs, there's an AC on this. AC 61-98 deals with a number of transition issues and has a suggested syllabus.

I start all of my transitions by giving the pilot a detailed written quiz - it's long enough to be a bit of overkill, but the idea is to force the pilot to look at the POH. Then break down the training to 6 groups of tasks (doesn't mean 6 lessons; they can all be covered in one or two or 8 or 9 depending on the pilot and the airplane):

1. Familiarization and normal operations
2. Maneuvers
3. Systems and special equipment
4. Emergency Operations
5. Flight by instrument reference
6. Performance charts.
 
My flight school requires a minimum of 8 hours of instruction and 30 takeoffs and landings before being signed off for our Piper Arrows (PA-28R-200).

Here's the rough syllabus I drew up to give people their complex endorsement. It is intended for most of our students who are fresh off their instrument rating, have about 150 TT, mostly in 152/172s, and are moving into commercial training. I've only trained one student with it so far, but it seemed to work well.

Overview
This syllabus is designed to meet the requirements for complex aircraft checkout training. A minimum of 8 flight hours and 30 takeoffs and landings are required. This syllabus is designed for eight lessons, each one hour in duration.
Homework assignments marked “review” should be studied until the transitioning pilot is reasonably familiar with and aware of the subject matter. Homework assignments marked “memorize” should be completely memorized to the level at which the transitioning pilot can recall the information quickly and without reference while flying the aircraft.

Lesson 1
• Preflight inspection
• Cockpit/avionics overview
• Engine start/runup procedures
• Normal/crosswind takeoff
• Slow flight
• Power off/on stalls
• Intro to emergency procedures

Homework: Review V speeds and general aircraft specs (max. gross weight, service ceiling, type of engine, fuel capacity, oil capacity)

Lesson 2
• Steep turns
• Turning stalls
• Emergency procedures (engine failure)
• Normal takeoffs and landings (pattern work)
• Balked landings

Homework: Memorize fuel system schematic. Memorize V speeds and general specs. Review gear system specs and operation.

Lesson 3
• Emergency gear extension procedures
• Review emergency procedures (engine failure)
• Normal takeoffs and landings
• Balked landings

Homework: Review electrical system specs. Review engine specs/power settings.

Lesson 4
• Normal takeoffs and landings
• Zero flap landings
• Power failures at various points in the pattern

Homework: Review performance charts (takeoff distances, rates of climb, cruising ranges, landing distances, etc.).

Lesson 5
• Soft field takeoffs and landings
• Short field takeoffs and landings

Homework: Compute weight and balance according to scenarios listed in Appendix A.

Lesson 6
• Catch up any uncompleted tasks
• Review any areas needing improvement

Homework: Review any uncompleted or misunderstood assignments.

Lessons 7 and 8
At this point, the transitioning pilot should be competent to act as Pilot in Command of a complex aircraft. Lessons 7 and 8 are needed primarily to satisfy insurance minimum time requirements.

The following are possible options to complete training:
• Review any areas needing improvement
• Practice instrument approaches
• Introduce commercial maneuvers
• Cross-country flight procedures
• Night flight training
 
Thanks for the excellent advice, guys. The plane was mx out today so I'll let you know how it goes once we actually get to fly.
 
My complex and high performance endorsement only took 1.1 hours in a 182RG. And I only had almost 200 hrs at time. It as basically like any other checkout in an aircraft except for prop control and learning how to pump the gear down.

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My flight school requires a minimum of 8 hours of instruction and 30 takeoffs and landings before being signed off for our Piper Arrows (PA-28R-200). A minimum of 8 flight hours and 30 takeoffs and landings are required.

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All of that time is to satisfy insurance requirements. The endorsement doesn't take close to that long. But the insurance company doesn't want anyone flying the plane with that little experience.

I'm glad I didn't get any of you guys to get just an endorsement.
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Well, if you have to satisfy insurance requirements, you may as well make it a "quality learning experience."
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My complex and high performance endorsement only took 1.1 hours in a 182RG. And I only had almost 200 hrs at time. It as basically like any other checkout in an aircraft except for prop control and learning how to pump the gear down.

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My flight school requires a minimum of 8 hours of instruction and 30 takeoffs and landings before being signed off for our Piper Arrows (PA-28R-200). A minimum of 8 flight hours and 30 takeoffs and landings are required.

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All of that time is to satisfy insurance requirements. The endorsement doesn't take close to that long. But the insurance company doesn't want anyone flying the plane with that little experience.

I'm glad I didn't get any of you guys to get just an endorsement.
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14 CFR 61.31(e)(1) requires that I make sure the pilot is "proficient in the operation and systems" of the complex airplane.

I take that to mean the pilot should have a thorough understanding of all systems, as well as be able to fly the aircraft to Private Pilot standards. I also consider "proficient" to mean that they have good habits formed.

As far as the book knowledge of systems is concerned, a PA-28R-200 is significantly more complicated than a C-152, or even a C-172. I make sure the pilot knows how the squat switch works, what conditions set off the autoextender and why it matters, what conditions turn the hydraulic pump on and off, how the fuel system is set up, where the fuel pressure and flow meters are located and why it matters, how fuel injection works, hot/cold starting procedures, exactly how the MP gauge works and what it's measuring, the difference between a loadmeter and ammeter, normal electrical loads for day/night operation, where the battery and hydraulic reservoir/pump are located and why it matters, what a stabilator is and how it is different than an elevator, how the prop governor works, what is happening when the blades change pitch, and the list could go on. That is in addition to the usual checkout of memorizing V speeds, emergency procedures, etc.

Bottom line is, the systems checkout required by regulation needs to be more thorough than "This lever changes the RPM, here's how to bring the gear up and down, now let's go around the pattern a few times." I expect them to understand exactly why something works a certain way, not just know that if they do this, that will happen.

As for the flying, I don't know many 150 hour pilots that can hop in a plane with a different wing design, an extra 40 knots of airspeed, an extra 1000 pounds gross weight, and fly it to private pilot standards within one hour. The plane feels and acts totally different than a 152. It drops like a rock with a failed engine. Using manual flaps is a noticeable switch versus electric. Most people are completely overwhelmed by the number of things to do while flying around the pattern for the first 6 or 8 touch and goes. I make sure they have it drilled into them under what conditions they bring the gear up and when they check gear down/3 green (when first extending, during the prelanding checklist, and short final). I also want them thoroughly aware of what sort of performance for climbs and descents they can expect with gear up and gear down.

And I'm supposed to sign my name in somebody's logbook saying they are competent to carry their family safely into a 1500 foot long, high density altitude airport after flying with me for one hour? Because that's what the endorsement is saying. It's saying the pilot is proficient. By my standards, I don't understand how somebody can make that transition in one hour. And I won't put my name to it.

Doing a standard FBO's insurance checkout for a new renter can be done in one hour because I just want to make sure the pilot has a good attitude towards safety, they use checklists, they can figure out the avionics, and they won't put themselves in a stall/spin situation (maybe it's a little more than this, but you know what I'm saying). A complex endorsement is different.
 
I can see that if you're going from a 172 to an Arrow, but if the guy is going from a 182 to a 182RG, I really don't see too much difference other than the gear system.
 
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I really don't see too much difference other than the gear system.

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...and the top secret jet-assisted takeoff function
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Fair enough. In the situation posted originally, the transitioning pilot might not need much training. I only have a few hours of 182 time, long enough to get my high performance endorsement, so I don't know much about the differences between a 182 and 182RG. But I'd still stress a little more than one hour. The pilot has 300 hours of fixed gear time. 1 hour of retractable time isn't much time to form habits.

I once heard that it takes people about eight repititions to learn a new skill (say, eight times flying good patterns for a student pilot to get the picture of what a "good" pattern looks like, or the right "picture" for if they are too high or low on final). From what I've seen in my limited amount of teaching, that guideline seems pretty accurate.

Also, I'll admit I'm a bit anal about book work, especially systems. Part of my feelings about this complex endorsement come from personal experience. When I had less than 20 hours of complex time, I had a gear problem with a full load of passengers. It all worked out good in the end, but I wished that my instructor had stressed systems more, because I wasn't very confident in knowing what was going on in the moment. I had a great instructor, but he just didn't stress book work much. When a problem came up, I thought I knew what was going on, but there was that little bit of doubt in the back of my mind that didn't go away until all three wheels touched the pavement and I didn't hear any metal grinding. I wasn't sure if I had handled everything correctly.

When I train people, I don't try to be tough so that they'll pass their checkride, or whatever. I do it because I want them to be confident. I want them to take control over problems, in the future, when it counts. The feeling of confusion, being "behind the curve", uncertain, whatever you want to call it, is a terrible feeling. I've felt it too many times before, and I don't want my students to feel that way some time in the future because of the way I taught something.
 
Yeah, I totally agree with all the reasons you posted, and I'd want to spend more than even one flight working on it, no matter what the Hobbs said. I'm also a systems geek, basically b/c if you know how the system works, then it's MUCH easier to troubleshoot any problems.
 
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I can see that if you're going from a 172 to an Arrow, but if the guy is going from a 182 to a 182RG, I really don't see too much difference other than the gear system.

[/ QUOTE ]Having done a few of these, there is at least one other. The single biggest issue in a complex transition I see is staying ahead of the airplane - =timing= the gear down as part of the procedure of getting from cruise to pattern - something that's not often even covered in the typical 1 hour checkout of maneuvers in the practice area and landings. I see the issue even in a 172 to Cutlass or Cherokee to Arrow transition. I even have a nice, completely objective test that I tell the pilot in advance - no endorsement if I hear the gear warning.

Those insurance requirements are probably way higher than they ought to be. My own TR182 transition, even with turbo management, had my CFI and I trying to figure out what to do next to kill some more time on the Hobbs. On the other hand, my first flight after a simple checkout into a new type is usually spent solo covering the things that the CFI doing the checkout would have covered (should have covered?) if there was a longer requirement.
 
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Those insurance requirements are probably way higher than they ought to be.

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Most FBO's I have run across have usually had a 20-25 hour in complex or 10 hours in type requirement to fly their complex airplanes for insurance purposes.

But maybe that's not the norm Just my experience though.
 
That's the time required by the insurance company for our Saratoga II HP at Coastal.

But, for the 172RG I did my training in, it was 10 hours in the plane to take it solo. Most got the endorsement in 5-6 hours, but need to complete the 10 before it can be rented.

Makes sense to have the 172RG lower... it's not glass/high performance.

I think the 182RG would be between there somewhere, insurance wise... (Maybe 15 hours...)
 
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Also, I'll admit I'm a bit anal about book work, especially systems. Part of my feelings about this complex endorsement come from personal experience. When I had less than 20 hours of complex time, I had a gear problem with a full load of passengers. It all worked out good in the end, but I wished that my instructor had stressed systems more, because I wasn't very confident in knowing what was going on in the moment. .

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Just remember to temper your outlook here. Keep the balance between having a pilot understand a system versus expecting him to know how to build the darn thing. Too many CFIs expect the latter direction, which IMO, is wasted brain cells. Down the road it might not hurt for them to learn more and enhance their knowlege, but not right up front. Too many of these same CFIs seem to forget that they're building pilots, not A&Ps. Consequently, they begin jamming the studs mind with information more than he should need to know to make the transition, rather than giving them what they need to know, and encouraging further study once the transition is complete.
 
Do you mean the location of every relay and squat switch isn't vital to the operation of a PA-28?
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Seriously, I knew a guy that got chewed out on an instrum,ent checkride because he didn't know how an aneroid wafer worked . . .

Had he been my student, I would have had to have a word of two with the DPE.
 
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