compensation for hire.

Douglas

Douglas

Old School KSUX
I would like to get a second opinion on two possible flights.

1. A student wants me to fly him from point A to point B, in my other student's airplane and pay me for a day of pilot service, the guy would buy the fuel and the owner would pay for nothing nor make any money.

2. The owner of said airplane wants me to fly to point A, pick up a plane full of nuns and drop them off at point B. Owner would pay expenses and a day of pilot service.


My brain is fried right now and can't think. My student just bust his PP ride, my first student to bust. :(
 
1) I'd pass.
2) Are the nuns paying the owner at all for this? If no: Sure go for it. If yes: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

-mini
 
If YOU (apparently a commercial pilot) take either of them, all that matters is that YOU don't provide the airplane together with your services.

Both 1 and 2 are simply providing pilot services. The plane is paid for separately.
 
slushie said:
If YOU (apparently a commercial pilot) take either of them, all that matters is that YOU don't provide the airplane together with your services.

Both 1 and 2 are simply providing pilot services. The plane is paid for separately.
Click to expand...

Douglas said:
...pay me for the fuel and a day of pilot service.
Click to expand...

Seemed to me like the student was paying the instructor/pilot to cover the pilot services and for providing the plane, even if not owned by the instructor/pilot.

-mini
 
minitour said:
Seemed to me like the student was paying the instructor/pilot to cover the pilot services and for providing the plane, even if not owned by the instructor/pilot.

-mini
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ah typo. My bad.

He is paying for the operating costs (hangar/fuel) + me (pilot service). The Owner would not make any money or lose any money in the deal.

(I fixed my original post)
 
Douglas said:
ah typo. My bad.

He is paying for the operating costs (hangar/fuel) + me (pilot service). The Owner would not make any money or lose any money in the deal.

(I fixed my original post)
Click to expand...
Shouldn't be a problem then. Owner can make what he wants as long as he isn't providing you as a pilot to the student.

Student pays owner for plane. (Student rents plane) + Student finds pilot and pays pilot to fly plane. = I don't see a problem there.

Student finding pilot and paying pilot to rent a plane (or pay for gas, etc.) and fly from A to B sounds like a problem to me.

-mini
 
Douglas said:
He is paying for the operating costs (hangar/fuel) + me (pilot service). The Owner would not make any money or lose any money in the deal.
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The relevant factor is that you must play no role in the acquisition of the airplane. It's not so important where the money ends up, but if you are responsible for funneling the money to the owner or arranging the deal in the first place, you could be construed by the FAA as being in operational control, hence "providing" the airiplane.
 
1. Sounds like pilot services pretty cut and dried. I'd do it.

2. I'd want to know the nature of the relationship between the plane owner and the nuns. Owner pays expenses and a fee for pilot services, but what are the nuns paying him for the flight? And if they're not paying him for the flight, are they paying him for anything else? If not, why is he flying them? What's in it for him? Its starting to smell like a 135 duck to me and while I'd only be a mere pawn in his operating without a certificate game (should it come to that), no pilot services fee is worth the hassle of having to explain my role in the flight to the FAA later. I'd probably pass.
 
Joe Gremlin said:
2. I'd want to know the nature of the relationship between the plane owner and the nuns. Owner pays expenses and a fee for pilot services, but what are the nuns paying him for the flight? And if they're not paying him for the flight, are they paying him for anything else? If not, why is he flying them? What's in it for him?
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Nunya. Nunya business.

Most of the part 91 flying I did was without the actual aircraft owners on board. "Go pick up so and so." "Take my assistant to ABC so she can catch an airline flight to (insert foreign country)." "My wife needs a cut and color, take her to LGA." Why and what's in it for him isn't your concern as the owner's pilot.

The only question you need to know the answer to is "are the occupants in any way paying for this flight?" If the answer is "no" then you're good. If the answer is "well..." or "yes" then use caution and dig further.

-mini
 
Joe Gremlin said:
2. I'd want to know the nature of the relationship between the plane owner and the nuns.
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Owner is devout and goes on religious retreat there at the convent. The owner has a standing offer with a few friends there to take them in the owners plane, for free, if they have to travel a great distance. The owner loves to fly, and nuns rarely have a need to travel like this. The owner is out of the country and I'm cute.


Edit for the bold = win
 
If the aircraft is provided by the "client" and it is airworthy, insured, etc...then I would jump right on it. You haven't advertised this in any sort of way. You spent a great deal of $$$ and effort to your CPL so put it to work. Perfectly legal.

Not to hijack this thread but I'm just curious, do commercial pilots get busted very often for this sort of thing in the GA world? It just seems like the FAA would be interested in other things.
 
at1024 said:
Not to hijack this thread but I'm just curious, do commercial pilots get busted very often for this sort of thing in the GA world? It just seems like the FAA would be interested in other things.
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I couldn't tell you the stats on GA pilots getting busted for the 134.5 thing, but I'd agree that there are more important things the FAA could be doing.

-mini
 
My guess is that the only way the FAA finds out is when someone drops a dime on you. Or there is an accident and questions about the operation come up.
 
at1024 said:
Not to hijack this thread but I'm just curious, do commercial pilots get busted very often for this sort of thing in the GA world? It just seems like the FAA would be interested in other things.
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From what I've seen in my neck of the woods, 134.5 is extremely rare. Most commercial pilots I know turn it down due to them wanting a future in flying. I think most 134.5 get busted by competitors or found out at the scene of the accident.
 
matt152 said:
My guess is that the only way the FAA finds out is when someone drops a dime on you. Or there is an accident and questions about the operation come up.
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And the folks who drop the dime tend to be Part 135 operators who followed the rules and spent the cash doing it.
 
Just curious about scenario #1. Student wants you to fly him from A to B in different student's plane. Could you make it a x/c dual and then you are not even providing services as commercial pilot, just as CFI? Just wondering out loud.
 
escapepilot said:
Just curious about scenario #1. Student wants you to fly him from A to B in different student's plane. Could you make it a x/c dual and then you are not even providing services as commercial pilot, just as CFI? Just wondering out loud.
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You are right, I could give my student flight training, he is an instrument student right now. But the owners insurance will not allow it to be used for flight training. At least that is how I understand it.
 
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