Commercial XC Requirements

n57flyguy

Well-Known Member
Can a Private Pilot apply for a Commercial Pilot Certificate (assuming all other requirements are met) by using one of their dual IFR cross country flights that meets the specified distance and time for the aeronautical experience required for that cross country? Why or why not?
 

That's a slightly different issue, Mike. That one deals with whether the commercial dual cross countries can be done IFR. Before the amendment, the answer was no; after the amendment, the answer is yes.

The question being asked, however, is whether one can "double dip" the 61.65 and the 61.129 cross countries. On that, I think the answer is "maybe." Here's the problem (and a verrrry long explanation, but I think it's important to CFIs to understand it as a benefit to their students):

There's a long line of thought in the FAA that one can't use tasks meant for one certificate or rating to satisfy the requirements of another. In the old, orphaned FAQ, John Lynch expressed this as a dislike for "double-dipping" (the reasons I used that term at the beginning). The no-double-dip concept was later adopted by the Chief Counsel's office in opinions like 2011's Murphy opinion (a 2-hour student pilot cross country can't be used to meet the commercial dual cross country requirement).

Even more to the point is the 2010 Hartzell opinion. In that one, the Chief Counsel reaffirmed the Theriault opinion (also referenced in Murphy). In that one, the Chief Counsel reaffirmed that 61.65 instrument training cannot be used to satisfy commercial requirements. Same concept, different application. "There is not an exact equivalence between the training required for an instrument rating under §61.65 and the aeronautical experience requirements under §61.129."

The underpinning for all this is the "on the areas of operation" language that appears as part of the training requirements for (just about?) every certificate or rating. Even if they sound the same, the "preflight preparation" task for the commercial is at least qualitatively different than the "preflight preparation" task for the private and the "preflight preparation" task for the instrument rating.

drunkenbeagle mentioned doing a combined 61.65/61.129 cross country. I think that works because, fortunately, Hartzell provides a possible way out of the dilemma. It's about the documentation: if the instrument dual is intended to also meet a commercial dual requirement, it needs to be documented in a way that makes the intent clear.

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The Theriault interpretation reinforces the existing requirement that instrument training used to satisfy the aeronautical experience requirements under §61.129 needs to be clearly documented by the applicant for the commercial pilot certificate. The interpretation dispels the notion that holding an instrument rating is, on it’s own, sufficient evidence that the applicant has fulfilled the aeronautical experience requirements for a commercial pilot certificate under §61.129. However, we anticipate that for commercial pilot applicants who already hold an instrument rating, the hours of instrument training used to obtain that rating will meet at least some, if not most, or quite often, meet all the requirements for instrument aeronautical experience as required under §61.129.
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So it at least looks like the answer to the OP is a strong "maybe." Was the 61.65 dual instrument cross country endorsed or written up by the CFI in a way that makes it "clearly documented" that it was intended to include the commercial "areas of operation" cross country tasks. Yes, I think it's okay. No, I think there's a problem with "double dipping" it.
 
Excellent explanation by Mark, though I think the FAA are a bunch of dimwits (or intentionally leaving openings to find fault with people down the road) for being so wishy washy with their "might, maybe, probably, likely" language, good grief, it's a friggin dual cross country, not a trip to the moon.
 
The i
Excellent explanation by Mark, though I think the FAA are a bunch of dimwits (or intentionally leaving openings to find fault with people down the road) for being so wishy washy with their "might, maybe, probably, likely" language, good grief, it's a friggin dual cross country, not a trip to the moon.
the "might maybe probably likely" language is mine, not the FAA's. After all, you wouldn't want me to have to put a lengthy "this is not a legal opinion" disclaimer in my signature block, would you?
 
The i
the "might maybe probably likely" language is mine, not the FAA's. After all, you wouldn't want me to have to put a lengthy "this is not a legal opinion" disclaimer in my signature block, would you?


Your "reverting" language bothers me. :D

Thanks!
 
good grief, it's a friggin dual cross country, not a trip to the moon.
So, you don't think you can learn any more about cross country stuff after you have been solo x/c, huh?
That's what I see on these message boards a lot, about double dippin. Problem is that you, and others like you don't see the challenge in the different levels of operation for each certificate or rating.

A Private area of operation is not as challenging as an instrument or commercial area of operation; whether preflight, x/c, or whatever. They all involve different levels of training and testing, privilege, and responsibility.

And...the schools and individual instructors don't try to make them any more challenging - just fly somewhere for the $100 hamburger.

A real commercial level x/c should involve navigating to a grass field with no electronic nav aids at night with a full load or some such type of difficulty - unlike a private where you can make a personal decision about where you go. When you're getting paid to do it - you should have the ability to do it.

Anyway, the point is that the areas of operation for each certificate is specific training for that certificate privilege and responsibility.

Double dipping from one to satisfy another has never been the intent of the regulations.

But, it has been abused so much that folks think it is allowed, and if you are not interested in learning all that you can, then you will also think it is reasonable, and find an examiner who will accept it.
 
A real commercial level x/c should involve navigating to a grass field with no electronic nav aids at night with a full load or some such type of difficulty - unlike a private where you can make a personal decision about where you go. When you're getting paid to do it - you should have the ability to do it.

Guess what, even a commercial student is still a customer. If the school tried to tell me where I'm going and why, I'd tell them piss off and take my money elsewhere. Sure, your training to be a commercial pilot. But you are also spending a ton of money.
 
So, you don't think you can learn any more about cross country stuff after you have been solo x/c, huh?
That's what I see on these message boards a lot, about double dippin. Problem is that you, and others like you don't see the challenge in the different levels of operation for each certificate or rating.

A Private area of operation is not as challenging as an instrument or commercial area of operation; whether preflight, x/c, or whatever. They all involve different levels of training and testing, privilege, and responsibility.

And...the schools and individual instructors don't try to make them any more challenging - just fly somewhere for the $100 hamburger.

A real commercial level x/c should involve navigating to a grass field with no electronic nav aids at night with a full load or some such type of difficulty - unlike a private where you can make a personal decision about where you go. When you're getting paid to do it - you should have the ability to do it.

Anyway, the point is that the areas of operation for each certificate is specific training for that certificate privilege and responsibility.

Double dipping from one to satisfy another has never been the intent of the regulations.

But, it has been abused so much that folks think it is allowed, and if you are not interested in learning all that you can, then you will also think it is reasonable, and find an examiner who will accept it.

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So, you don't think you can learn any more about cross country stuff after you have been solo x/c, huh?
That's what I see on these message boards a lot, about double dippin. Problem is that you, and others like you don't see the challenge in the different levels of operation for each certificate or rating.

A Private area of operation is not as challenging as an instrument or commercial area of operation; whether preflight, x/c, or whatever. They all involve different levels of training and testing, privilege, and responsibility.

And...the schools and individual instructors don't try to make them any more challenging - just fly somewhere for the $100 hamburger.

A real commercial level x/c should involve navigating to a grass field with no electronic nav aids at night with a full load or some such type of difficulty - unlike a private where you can make a personal decision about where you go. When you're getting paid to do it - you should have the ability to do it.

Anyway, the point is that the areas of operation for each certificate is specific training for that certificate privilege and responsibility.

Double dipping from one to satisfy another has never been the intent of the regulations.

But, it has been abused so much that folks think it is allowed, and if you are not interested in learning all that you can, then you will also think it is reasonable, and find an examiner who will accept it.


You do bring up a valid point. We should challenge ourselves on even a simple VFR X/C to make the flight a more simulated event of what may actually. Not my purpose to mediate between the reference you quoted, an X/C is still an X/C. What we as pilots do and attempt to learn on that flight is up tho them. However the regulation doesn't specify that it needs to be done to anymore specific parameters than time, distance, and flight conditions.

Your proposed X/C sounds like fun and challenging. There is a huge emphasis on pre flight preparation there and understanding of many elements. We should be able to do that.

I would not call it abuse exactly, that's why the courts stay busy and we get LOI's on these subjects.
 
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