Commercial Manuvers

Dazzler

Well-Known Member
Hello fellow aviators,

I am planning on starting my Commercial training soon and would appreciate any hints and tips that anyone may have to offer on the commercial manuvers - particularly eights-on-pylons, lazy eights and chandelles.

Thanks!
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
It helps me to think of each maneuver in segements: i.e. take the lazy 8 in 45* semements instead of trying to do the whole thing.
 

Josh

Well-Known Member
Since Chandelles and Lazy 8 work can be an exercise in rudder control you are not used to, I would suggest this:

Go get a tailwheel endorsement. In the process of some fun flying, you'll learn how to use the rudder. Tell them you want to work on commercial airwork during the tailwheel checkout.

Then get in your Arrow or 172RG or whatever, and do the same stuff. Work on the landings, and go take the checkride.

I did it all bass ackwards, and am doing tailwheel now. I should have done it before commercial. Would have made things a lot easier.

My one tip though, remember lazy 8s are lazy. So slooooooooow. Should take the same amount of time in the first 90 of each turn as the second 90 of that half of the 8. Count up and count down during those two parts if needed to help out why you are low/high at the 180 point. Helped a guy who was working on his commercial same time as I was.

Josh
 

PhotoPilot

New Member
As Josh and Ed said, keep the Lazy-8s slow. It's easy to come out of them high and slow or low and fast. Roll out of that bank half as fast as you think you should, otherwise you'll end up 30 or 40 degrees short of your 180 degree heading.

In Chandelles, don't be freaked out by the stall warning horn. As I learned them, I end up being just below a stall for a significant portion of the last 90 degrees. As long as you stay coordinated, pushing to far and actually stalling isn't a big deal when your practising.

Finally, in the spirit of coordination, stay on those rudders! If not already, you'll soon be able to feel it in you butt (seat of the pants flying at it's best!) without having to look at the inclinometer.

8s-on-pylons call for a stabilized entry (well . . . so do the other maneuvers . . . ). Have your airspeed and trim nailed. Then, make small adjustments. Don't over correct or you'll be porpoising all the way around the pylons. Instead it should be a slow, gentle descent on the upwind and a slow gentle climb on the downwind.

I'm sure there's better advice out there, but I'm right in the middle of getting ready for my comm checkride and those are the things that helped me . . .
 

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
Richard,

I see you are back. How was London? I have not done much flying, I was snowed out 3 times. I am going up tomorrow for the ILS32 at KSTP and maybe a GPS28 at KFCM if we can get it from ATC. That will depend on the traffic departing MSP. Anyhow shoot me a line, I had a couple of questions on the ILS at STP. Looks like you're a step ahead of the advice above, seeing as how you already have the tailwheel. When are you starting the Comm.

later,
jim
 

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
I can pretty much echo what's already been said as I am just about done with my Comm. rating.

The thing that was the most impressive for me was the angle at which you do most of the maneuvers (i.e. steep bank angle and high angles of attack to JUST below the stall), but the thing that I quickly realized is that I was learning just how much the plane could do in certain circumstances.

The ground reference maneuvers - 8's on's and Emergency Spiral - for me - take the most concentration so as not to lose your point of reference.

Just be patient and enjoy it. I absolutely LOVE doing Chandelles and Lazy 8's now... but then again.... I ain't right in the head.
 

C650CPT

Well-Known Member
Dazzler
I highly recommend as every one has said, break down the maneuvers and understand the why and what of each segment. Take it a little further and do visualization or chair flying, just make sure you're alone. Seriously close your eyes and physically move your hands and feet and head as if you were actually flying the maneuvers, it will help with muscle memory and coordination so when you do it in the real airplane it will feel natural rather than mechanical. I also recommend getting a video tape of the maneuvers it will help you visualize in 3D, I used to use the Jepp tapes as a teaching tool. Good Luck and have fun with the commerciall its a blast.

Jim
 

bluelake

Well-Known Member
its not an "emergency spiral". Its a "Steep Spiral Descent". I know, mincing words, but I have seen students have problems with this because they misinterpet the intent of this maneuver.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Potato, Potato.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think so, huh?


I agree with bluelake. Wait until you start instructing and you say, "OK George, lets do an 'Emergency Spiral' whenever you're ready..."

Odds are, you're going to get an emergency descent, instead of a steep spiral.

Say what you mean, mean what you say.
 

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
Last time I chime in on one of these things. You know what in the hell I meant. Excuse my type-o. Jesus friggin CHRIST!!
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member


Sheesh...come on man. I was not trying to pick on you. Did the smilies not show up in my post?

Sorry...jeez.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
its not an "emergency spiral". Its a "Steep Spiral Descent". I know, mincing words, but I have seen students have problems with this because they misinterpet the intent of this maneuver.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm lost too.

As far as I know, isn't the intent of the manuever to start at "Position A" and end up at "Position B" in a profile that'll enable you to perform an emergency landing?
 

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Sheesh...come on man. I was not trying to pick on you. Did the smilies not show up in my post?

Sorry...jeez.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry. Bad day.. Rubbed me the wrong way. Disregard.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
As far as I know, isn't the intent of the manuever to start at "Position A" and end up at "Position B" in a profile that'll enable you to perform an emergency landing?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but that wasn't my (nor bluelake's, I don't think) point. The point was you have to watch what you call it. "Emergency Spiral" could easily be construed as "emergency descent"- which is quite different than the "Steep Spiral" that is required per the Commercial PTS.

Emergency Descent=GET DOWN NOW!!! (Fire, pressurization, etc. problem)

Steep Spiral=Lose altitude over a selected spot for a forced landing. (Engine failure)

At least, thats my interpretation. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers.
 

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but that wasn't my (nor bluelake's, I don't think) point. The point was you have to watch what you call it. "Emergency Spiral" could easily be construed as "emergency descent"- which is quite different than the "Steep Spiral" that is required per the Commercial PTS.

Emergency Descent=GET DOWN NOW!!! (Fire, pressurization, etc. problem)

Steep Spiral=Lose altitude over a selected spot for a forced landing. (Engine failure)

At least, thats my interpretation. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is how I interpreted it too. The reason for a steep spiral would be if you had an engine failure and there was a lot of unsuitable terrain for landing. Assuming that you find a spot, you would spiral over it so you can assure yourself a place to land at all times.

An emergency decent would be if you had a fire, passenger having a heart attack, etc, and you needed to get down ASAP.
 

Dazzler

Well-Known Member
Thanks to everyone who has responded so far.

Something else I'd like to know, staying on the subject of Commercial training...

What do you think is better? To do all of the training in a complex aircraft, or just part of it? How about the actual flight test? I understand that it is possible to do some of the test in a complex aircraft, and the rest in a non-complex. What parts of the test would have to be done in a complex plane in that case?

Thanks!
 

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks to everyone who has responded so far.

Something else I'd like to know, staying on the subject of Commercial training...

What do you think is better? To do all of the training in a complex aircraft, or just part of it? How about the actual flight test? I understand that it is possible to do some of the test in a complex aircraft, and the rest in a non-complex. What parts of the test would have to be done in a complex plane in that case?

Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

I would do all of it in a complex aircraft. I believe the requirements for part 61 is 10 hours of complex time and that is all you really need, maybe a few more.

Do the DE ride in a complex. I couldn't imagine doing stuff in a fixed gear and then switching to a complex. In my mind that is placing undue pressure on you and a waste of time, and money (more taxi time).
 

sbe

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
What do you think is better? To do all of the training in a complex aircraft, or just part of it?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are new to or are unaccustomed to flying a complex aircraft, do all the training in one. I had only flown fixed-gear till I finished my instrument training, so got myself into the Arrow immediately thereafter and am doing all the work with my CFI, as well as my own practice of the manuevers, in that same plane. The more comfortable, the better.

Sarah
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
I believe you just need to prove competency in complex aircraft, i.e you know how to put the gear down before landing; so if you really wanted to you could do 90% of the test in a 'simple' airplane then move into the complex for pattern work.

But do you REALLY want to practice in 2 different airplanes and take 2 flight tests?

BTW if you're planning on doing the CFI too you could always do the comm training in the right seat.
 
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