Commercial Cross Country Requirements

ScottG

ScottG

Well-Known Member
Can all of the cross country requirements for a commercial license be met solo prior to beginning work with a CFI i.e.....

  1. One cross-country flight of at least 2 hr. in a single-engine airplane in day-VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 NM from the original point of departure
  2. One cross-country flight of at least 2 hr. in a single-engine airplane in night-VFR conditions, consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 100 NM from the original point of departure
One cross-country flight of not less than 300 NM total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 NM from the original departure point

Also, does the cross country requirements for the instrument rating include those you made while training for the PPL?
 
You are mixing solo and dual requirements. The VFR day & night cross country flights are dual, the 300 nm flight is solo:

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a single-engine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

The quick answer is yes, you can do the solo flight anytime after you have your private rating.

The cross country flights you did for your PPL won't satisfy the requirements of the instrument rating, unless you had a very unusual cross country flight for your PPL. Check the regs and you'll see the difference.
 
ScottG said:
Also, does the cross country requirements for the instrument rating include those you made while training for the PPL?
Click to expand...

If you're just talking about the 50 hours PIC XC (at least 10 in airplanes) then certainly your SOLO XC flights count.
 
Nihon_Ni said:
You are mixing solo and dual requirements. The VFR day & night cross country flights are dual, the 300 nm flight is solo:

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a single-engine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

The quick answer is yes, you can do the solo flight anytime after you have your private rating.

The cross country flights you did for your PPL won't satisfy the requirements of the instrument rating, unless you had a very unusual cross country flight for your PPL. Check the regs and you'll see the difference.
Click to expand...

Ok thanks well that is what I was wondering....If I go in with an instrument rating then I will need 10 hours dual instruction. I have seen schools that advertise 10 hour commercial ratings. Is it possible or rather probable to do the two dual x countries (at least 4 hours there) and learn all of the maneuvers in this 10 hours?

Thanks bhh1128 I wouldn't think the dual pre PPL x countries would count. But I was wondering on the solos.
 
ScottG said:
Ok thanks well that is what I was wondering....If I go in with an instrument rating then I will need 10 hours dual instruction. I have seen schools that advertise 10 hour commercial ratings. Is it possible or rather probable to do the two dual x countries (at least 4 hours there) and learn all of the maneuvers in this 10 hours?

Thanks bhh1128 I wouldn't think the dual pre PPL x countries would count. But I was wondering on the solos.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand your question, but let me take a crack at it.

An instrument rating requires 40 hrs of instrument time, of which 20 hrs must be dual. (Just like a PPL requires 20 hrs of dual, most people need more to get all the training done so you should expect the same with an instrument rating.) During that time you'll do your instrument cross country flights and satisfy all the other requirements as a by product of working through your instrument syllabus.

Break, break.

The commercial rating requires 10 hrs of instruction in a complex airplane. If you satisfied that requirement while doing your instrument training, then you are "done" with it. (I say "done" with it, because there will be complex training you will have to do to prep for the commercial check ride, since at least a portion of it must be done in a complex airplane.) I chose to satisfy this requirement by getting a private MEL rating, then spending a couple hrs with my CFI in an Arrow flying the traffic pattern in prep for my CPL. (I had a bunch of PA-28 time, so the transition wasn't too difficult for me. I went this route because I owned a plane at the time and used it for my CPL check ride, except for the complex work.)

The cross country flights that are part of the commercial requirements are different from the instrument cross country. The regs only say "VFR conditions" but the FAA has historically interpreted that to mean flown under visual flight rules (i.e., you can't fly it and log simulated time). When I got ready for my CPL, I had to do this pair of 2 hr X/C flights with a CFI even though I had over 400 X/C hrs in my logbook, since none of them satisified the requirements.

As for solo time, I've also seen intrepretation from the FAA that this time is post private, so you will need 10 hrs of solo flight working on the areas of commercial training outlined in 61.127. (The FAA's argument is something along the lines of: How can you be working on commercial maneuvers while you were a student pilot?) It might be written in the DPE handbook, but I'm not sure. I think John Lynch's FAQs had a statement in there, but they aren't valid anymore. Call your FBO or DPE and ask them. Their opinion is the only one that counts anyhow.

I personally think a quote for a 10 hr commercial rating is about as realistic as a 40 hr quote for a private rating. Read the regs:

Assuming you already have 10 hrs of instrument training by getting your IR, then:

(3)(ii) 10 hrs of complex training
(iii) 2 hrs of day cross-country training
(iv) 2 hrs of night cross-country training
(v) 3 hrs of prep w/in 60 days of the check ride
(4) 10 hrs of solo

You could combine 3(ii) + (iii) + (iv) + (v), but you are going to need 10 hrs of instruction at a minimum if you don't have any previous complex training. I don't think the average pilot can go start to finish in commercial training in 10 hrs solo and 10 hrs dual. There are people who can, just like some people do their PPL in 40 hrs, but they are not the norm and you shouldn't budget your training for that.

My $.02.
 
Nihon_Ni said:
An instrument rating requires 40 hrs of instrument time, of which 20 hrs must be dual. (Just like a PPL requires 20 hrs of dual, most people need more to get all the training done so you should expect the same with an instrument rating.)
Click to expand...

Actually, under part 61, the instrument only requires 15 hours of dual.
 
ScottG said:
Ok thanks well that is what I was wondering....If I go in with an instrument rating then I will need 10 hours dual instruction. I have seen schools that advertise 10 hour commercial ratings. Is it possible or rather probable to do the two dual x countries (at least 4 hours there) and learn all of the maneuvers in this 10 hours?

Thanks bhh1128 I wouldn't think the dual pre PPL x countries would count. But I was wondering on the solos.
Click to expand...

You still need 20hrs of dual received even if you have previously satisfied the 10hrs of "instrument training" through your instrument rating training.

Reference below (extracted from the FAA's Aeronautical Experience Checklist - search for it on FAA.gov)...

NOTE 4: Applicants for a commercial pilot certificate with the airplane single engine, airplane multiengine, helicopter, gyroplane, or powered-lift ratings and who already holds an instrument rating that is appropriate to the category and class rating sought are not required to accomplish an additional “. . . 10 hours of instrument training . . .” as stated in § 61.129(a)(3)(i); § 61.129(b)(3)(i); § 61.129(c)(3)(i); § 61.129(d)(3)(i); and § 61.129(e)(3)(i). However, the required commercial pilot training hour requirements [i.e., ". . . on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127 . . ."] of 20 hours in § 61.129(a)(3), (b)(3), (c)(3), (d)(3), and (e)(3) cannot be reduced to 10 hours.
:panic:
 
ScottG said:
So what would you do in the additional 10 hours if you aren't instrument training....
Click to expand...
Given that most people these days go for the commercial after the instrument, this is the situation faced by most commercial applicants. Between the 2 required dual cross countries, and the need to learn and bring those new commercial maneuvers within PTS parameters, I don't think most have too much difficulty filling up the 20 hours of post-Private instruction in the listed areas of operation.
 
Ok so for complete understanding, after your PPL and instrument are completed you need to have logged 20 hours of dual experience and 10 hours of solo practice prior to taking a check ride?
 
For truly complete understanding go through the part of 61.129 that deals with the rating associated with the commercial certificate you are going after instead of relying on "some guys on the internet."

But, in summary, there are general (250 total with a breakdown for cross country and PIC,mongother things), dual (20 hours) and solo (10 hours) requirements. The 250 general includes all applicable flight hours, but the dual and solo is limited by the "in the areas of operations" language that references the list of required commercial training tasks, which a lot of people view as at least requriing that they be post PP.
 
I read through the regs I was just confused about some of the advertised comm programs (skymates, numerous FBO's etc). They all advertise about 10 hours so they must require a degree of training from another source prior to arrival to satisfy the dual requirements?
 
ScottG said:
I read through the regs I was just confused about some of the advertised comm programs (skymates, numerous FBO's etc). They all advertise about 10 hours so they must require a degree of training from another source prior to arrival to satisfy the dual requirements?
Click to expand...



Exactly. You want to have all the prerequisites completed before arriving.
 
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