Commercial ASEL/AMEL

[Pietrantonio]

This has probably already been answered somewhere on this forum, and I apologize, but I haven't found an answer I'm looking for.

I'm just a bit confused on getting the Comm ASEL/AMEL ratings. I know that 250 hours is needed to be eligible to get a Comm rating. Is there any time requirment in the Multi that has to be met in order to get the Comm AMEL?

Here's what my situation is going to look like:

PPL ASEL
Instrument Rating - Airplane
AMEL Rating
--> By this point I should be at 180 TT, and I'll need 70 hours to meet 250. Can this time building all be done in a 152 for cheap, and when I hit the 250 TT mark, get my Comm in both ASEL and AMEL or is there a certain amount of hours required to get a Comm in the AMEL?

I hope this makes sense, and I appreciate the help! If you need more info, let me know. Thanks!

Alright, just checked out the 61.129 and you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong. Am I right for understanding that there is no specific multi time requirment, however, the single and multi times are the same, it's just the 2 hours day/night VFR x-country flights are different between the two (single for the single comm and multi for the multi comm), and that the 10 hours of complex time are different as they pertain to either single or multi. Now, will the time spent getting the multi rating suffice for the 10 hours training required for the comm multi?

Thanks again, and I really apologize if this is all over the place. I'm probably going to have to start paying cash for the rest of my training, because I really don't want to rely on any more loan companies, etc...so I'm trying to find the cheapest and fastest way to get these ratings. Thanks.

 

[Chief Captain]

You'll need a specific MEL checkride. What I plan to do is work my way up to my Commercial, flying the 172 most of the time, then for the complex requirement, do the multi training. After I do my Commercial single, i can do my multi/commercial addon as a single checkride.

 

[bdhill1979]

This has probably already been answered somewhere on this forum, and I apologize, but I haven't found an answer I'm looking for.

I'm just a bit confused on getting the Comm ASEL/AMEL ratings. I know that 250 hours is needed to be eligible to get a Comm rating. Is there any time requirment in the Multi that has to be met in order to get the Comm AMEL?

Here's what my situation is going to look like:

PPL ASEL
Instrument Rating - Airplane
AMEL Rating
--> By this point I should be at 180 TT, and I'll need 70 hours to meet 250. Can this time building all be done in a 152 for cheap, and when I hit the 250 TT mark, get my Comm in both ASEL and AMEL or is there a certain amount of hours required to get a Comm in the AMEL?

I hope this makes sense, and I appreciate the help! If you need more info, let me know. Thanks!

Alright, just checked out the 61.129 and you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong. Am I right for understanding that there is no specific multi time requirment, however, the single and multi times are the same, it's just the 2 hours day/night VFR x-country flights are different between the two (single for the single comm and multi for the multi comm), and that the 10 hours of complex time are different as they pertain to either single or multi. Now, will the time spent getting the multi rating suffice for the 10 hours training required for the comm multi?

Thanks again, and I really apologize if this is all over the place. I'm probably going to have to start paying cash for the rest of my training, because I really don't want to rely on any more loan companies, etc...so I'm trying to find the cheapest and fastest way to get these ratings. Thanks.

It all depends on what you do your initial commercial checkride in.

If it is for the Single then the subsection in 61.129-A applies:

For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least -
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least -
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a single-engine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least -
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

If the initial is for Commercial Multi then 61.129-B applies:

(b) For an airplane multiengine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least -
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least -
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a multiengine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a multiengine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least -
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Once you have the commercial Pilot certificate then additional ratings have no time requirement.

But remember that getting your "complex" time in a twin will not help you much if you are taking the initial checkride in a single. That time would be better spent training and practicing since the checkride (at least the landings) must be done in a complex airplane.

Probably the best thing for you to do is decide right now whether you want to do your initial in a single or a multi.

If I could go back to where you are now I probably would do the initial in a multi engine since it counts for the commercial multi, and towards your 250 total required. So in effect you are paying less than if you paid for the single engine to get to 250, then paid twin rates after you had the 250 so it didn't count for two things at once.

 

[Pietrantonio]

It all depends on what you do your initial commercial checkride in.

If it is for the Single then the subsection in 61.129-A applies:
If the initial is for Commercial Multi then 61.129-B applies:

Once you have the commercial Pilot certificate then additional ratings have no time requirement.

But remember that getting your "complex" time in a twin will not help you much if you are taking the initial checkride in a single. That time would be better spent training and practicing since the checkride (at least the landings) must be done in a complex airplane.

Probably the best thing for you to do is decide right now whether you want to do your initial in a single or a multi.

If I could go back to where you are now I probably would do the initial in a multi engine since it counts for the commercial multi, and towards your 250 total required. So in effect you are paying less than if you paid for the single engine to get to 250, then paid twin rates after you had the 250 so it didn't count for two things at once.

I don't understand what you mean by doing the initial in the Multi since it would count for the comm multi and towards the 250 req...

I wasn't sure how it was broken down to where it would be cheaper than building my time to 250 in a single, getting my comm single, and then the multi add-on.

Aviation seems confusing at times. anic:I appreciate the help though!! Thanks a lot.

 

[SD3Dog]

I don't understand what you mean by doing the initial in the Multi since it would count for the comm multi and towards the 250 req...

I wasn't sure how it was broken down to where it would be cheaper than building my time to 250 in a single, getting my comm single, and then the multi add-on.

Aviation seems confusing at times. anic:I appreciate the help though!! Thanks a lot.

FWIW. :hiya: If I remember correctly I got my multi and my Comm at the same time (same ride), then took my CSEL in a cessna 172 (non complex) a month later. It seems there was a monetary reason for doing it that way.

 

[bdhill1979]

I don't understand what you mean by doing the initial in the Multi since it would count for the comm multi and towards the 250 req...

I wasn't sure how it was broken down to where it would be cheaper than building my time to 250 in a single, getting my comm single, and then the multi add-on.

Aviation seems confusing at times. anic:I appreciate the help though!! Thanks a lot.

since regardless of whether you choose to do the initial ride in a single or a multi you still must have 250 total hours no matter what.

Now if you start training for the Commercial multi at say 225 hours then you are paying for your multi training, as well as counting that time towards your required 250 hours.

Just for example sake lets say a twin cost $200 and hour and the single $100.

If you build that last 25 or so hours in a twin then you will pay $5000

If you build that last 25 hours in a single you will pay $2500, but then pay for the twin time AFTER you have reached 250 hours and still pay as much as the $5000 in addition to whatever you paid in reaching the 250 hours.

Doing the single engine add is a pretty simple checkride, I will not say "easy" because a lot of people have fallen into that trap and bonked it, but pretty straightforward and can be done in a non-complex 172 or whatever. I have sent guys to do it in a Katana.

The point is that to cut costs in training without shortchanging yourself is all about making your flight time count for as many requirements simultaneously as possible. Doing the Initial Commercial in a multi engine airplane, as close to 250 total hours as possible will save a decent chunk of change by not making you pay for the more expensive airplane after you already have a requirement met.

 

[Pietrantonio]

Ok. I see where you are coming from. So, heres an estimate of the situation. I could have my PPL-ASEL and Instrument Rating and I will probably be at ~160-170 TT. I'm still going to have to build my time, so you're recommending that I build up to 60-70 more hours to put me at ~ 220-240 TT, and then get my multi rating and the comm multi at the same time? I just want to make sure that I have understood you completely.

 

[bdhill1979]

Ok. I see where you are coming from. So, heres an estimate of the situation. I could have my PPL-ASEL and Instrument Rating and I will probably be at ~160-170 TT. I'm still going to have to build my time, so you're recommending that I build up to 60-70 more hours to put me at ~ 220-240 TT, and then get my multi rating and the comm multi at the same time? I just want to make sure that I have understood you completely.

Right

Keep building the time to get to where you can reasonably start training in a Multi Engine aircraft for your commercial certificate with a multi engine rating (one checkride),aiming to take the checkride as close to 250 total hours as you can; then get your single add on after.

If you do it this way though looking at 61.129-B you must have a minimum of 20 hours in a Multi engine airplane:
10 hours training
10 hours solo or performing duties of PIC

I have seen a few times where guys did not understand this and thought it would only take 10 hours to be ready for the checkride and showed up at 240 tt. They thought they were being smart, but got bit in the ass instead.

I think budgeting for 25 hours is adequate for most people

 

[Pietrantonio]

Right

Keep building the time to get to where you can reasonably start training in a Multi Engine aircraft for your commercial certificate with a multi engine rating (one checkride),aiming to take the checkride as close to 250 total hours as you can; then get your single add on after.

If you do it this way though looking at 61.129-B you must have a minimum of 20 hours in a Multi engine airplane:
10 hours training
10 hours solo or performing duties of PIC

I have seen a few times where guys did not understand this and thought it would only take 10 hours to be ready for the checkride and showed up at 240 tt. They thought they were being smart, but got bit in the ass instead.

I think budgeting for 25 hours is adequate for most people

Thanks for the help! Things are going to get tight now because I'm backing off from the loans. I Have about 20K in the loans, but I'm going to pay the rest from now. I realized how much I really don't want to pay back 500-600 / month for 30 years. So, I can live with what I have in debt now, but I'm just going to have to slow things down a bit, really do my research, and find a school with great rates, and programs, to get me where I want to be.

Again, thanks man for the help!

 

[Nihon_Ni]

since regardless of whether you choose to do the initial ride in a single or a multi you still must have 250 total hours no matter what.

Now if you start training for the Commercial multi at say 225 hours then you are paying for your multi training, as well as counting that time towards your required 250 hours.

Just for example sake lets say a twin cost $200 and hour and the single $100.

If you build that last 25 or so hours in a twin then you will pay $5000

If you build that last 25 hours in a single you will pay $2500, but then pay for the twin time AFTER you have reached 250 hours and still pay as much as the $5000 in addition to whatever you paid in reaching the 250 hours.

Doing the single engine add is a pretty simple checkride, I will not say "easy" because a lot of people have fallen into that trap and bonked it, but pretty straightforward and can be done in a non-complex 172 or whatever. I have sent guys to do it in a Katana.

The point is that to cut costs in training without shortchanging yourself is all about making your flight time count for as many requirements simultaneously as possible. Doing the Initial Commercial in a multi engine airplane, as close to 250 total hours as possible will save a decent chunk of change by not making you pay for the more expensive airplane after you already have a requirement met.

You're making one assumption that isn't true. The training time for an add-on rating isn't the same as an initial rating. Training for an initial requires 20 hrs of training and 10 hrs of solo. As you have said, whichever way you get your CPL first you must meet the requirements of that section of 61.129. CSEL will require 30 hrs of SEL; CMEL will require 30 hrs of MEL. If you add a rating, there's no minimum flight time. A CMEL rating can be added for 8-10 hrs (your mileage may vary).

If you do your CSEL first:
61.129(a): 30 hrs x $100/hr = $3000
CMEL add-n: 10 hrs x $200 = $2000
Total: $5000

If you do your CMEL first:
61.129(b): 30 hrs x $200/hr = $6000
CSEL add-n: 10 hrs x $100 = $1000
Total: $7000

I don't think a CSEL add-on wouldn't take 10 hrs if you learned all the maneuvers in a CMEL, but to be fair I kept the training time the same so that at the end of both training paths a pilot would have 260 hrs (initial CPL at 250 hrs + 10 hrs add-on training).

 

[Pietrantonio]

You're making one assumption that isn't true. The training time for an add-on rating isn't the same as an initial rating. Training for an initial requires 20 hrs of training and 10 hrs of solo. As you have said, whichever way you get your CPL first you must meet the requirements of that section of 61.129. CSEL will require 30 hrs of SEL; CMEL will require 30 hrs of MEL. If you add a rating, there's no minimum flight time. A CMEL rating can be added for 8-10 hrs (your mileage may vary).

If you do your CSEL first:
61.129(a): 30 hrs x $100/hr = $3000
CMEL add-n: 10 hrs x $200 = $2000
Total: $5000

If you do your CMEL first:
61.129(b): 30 hrs x $200/hr = $6000
CSEL add-n: 10 hrs x $100 = $1000
Total: $7000

I don't think a CSEL add-on wouldn't take 10 hrs if you learned all the maneuvers in a CMEL, but to be fair I kept the training time the same so that at the end of both training paths a pilot would have 260 hrs (initial CPL at 250 hrs + 10 hrs add-on training).

So should I go for my ME rating after my IR, or should I build my 60-70 hours of time needed for the commercial, and then go for my ME rating plus commercial ratings?

What I have in mind, is to complete my IR rating, and I should be at 160-170TT. Then I was going to time build, and then do my CSEL, and then my CMEL getting that and my ME rating. Should I worry about my complex SEL when I start my commerical training, or should I get that taken care of sometime during my time building process? What are your thoughts. If you finished your IR....what would be the next step for you?

 

[LoadMasterC141]

You're making one assumption that isn't true. The training time for an add-on rating isn't the same as an initial rating. Training for an initial requires 20 hrs of training and 10 hrs of solo. As you have said, whichever way you get your CPL first you must meet the requirements of that section of 61.129. CSEL will require 30 hrs of SEL; CMEL will require 30 hrs of MEL. If you add a rating, there's no minimum flight time. A CMEL rating can be added for 8-10 hrs (your mileage may vary).

If you do your CSEL first:
61.129(a): 30 hrs x $100/hr = $3000
CMEL add-n: 10 hrs x $200 = $2000
Total: $5000

If you do your CMEL first:
61.129(b): 30 hrs x $200/hr = $6000
CSEL add-n: 10 hrs x $100 = $1000
Total: $7000

I don't think a CSEL add-on wouldn't take 10 hrs if you learned all the maneuvers in a CMEL, but to be fair I kept the training time the same so that at the end of both training paths a pilot would have 260 hrs (initial CPL at 250 hrs + 10 hrs add-on training).

I am not seeing how you would need 30 total multi hours to do that as your initial comm. All of it can be combined and be finished in 15 or so hours. Lots of schools do this. I am attending one in 2 weeks. It is small, but big ones like ATP do it as well.

www.osaviation.com

 

[bdhill1979]

You're making one assumption that isn't true. The training time for an add-on rating isn't the same as an initial rating. Training for an initial requires 20 hrs of training and 10 hrs of solo. As you have said, whichever way you get your CPL first you must meet the requirements of that section of 61.129. CSEL will require 30 hrs of SEL; CMEL will require 30 hrs of MEL. If you add a rating, there's no minimum flight time. A CMEL rating can be added for 8-10 hrs (your mileage may vary).

If you do your CSEL first:
61.129(a): 30 hrs x $100/hr = $3000
CMEL add-n: 10 hrs x $200 = $2000
Total: $5000

If you do your CMEL first:
61.129(b): 30 hrs x $200/hr = $6000
CSEL add-n: 10 hrs x $100 = $1000
Total: $7000

I don't think a CSEL add-on wouldn't take 10 hrs if you learned all the maneuvers in a CMEL, but to be fair I kept the training time the same so that at the end of both training paths a pilot would have 260 hrs (initial CPL at 250 hrs + 10 hrs add-on training).

Oh the add on is not the same at all, but a single add on will almost always be quicker. I actually did one in the bare minimum 3 hours to sign him off and he passed just fine.

Some people can be proficient in a twin in 8 hours, some people definitely cannot.

 

[Nihon_Ni]

I am not seeing how you would need 30 total multi hours to do that as your initial comm. All of it can be combined and be finished in 15 or so hours. Lots of schools do this. I am attending one in 2 weeks. It is small, but big ones like ATP do it as well.

You don't have to have 30 hrs of multi time -- the minimum would be 25. (b)(3) requires 20 hours of training on commercial subjects. It allows you to do 5 of those hours in something other than a twin (ASEL, rotorcraft, etc), so the minimum twin training would be 15 hrs for (b)(3) plus 10 hours of "solo" flight for (b)(4).

Here's a note from the FAA's Aeronautical Experience Checklist:

NOTE 4: Applicants for a commercial pilot certificate with the airplane single engine, airplane multiengine, helicopter, gyroplane, or powered-lift ratings and who already holds an instrument rating that is appropriate to the category and class rating sought are not required to accomplish an additional “. . . 10 hours of instrument training . . .” as stated in § 61.129(a)(3)(i); § 61.129(b)(3)(i); § 61.129(c)(3)(i); § 61.129(d)(3)(i); and § 61.129(e)(3)(i). However, the required commercial pilot training hour requirements [i.e., ". . . on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127 . . ."] of 20 hours in § 61.129(a)(3), (b)(3), (c)(3), (d)(3), and (e)(3) cannot be reduced to 10 hours. http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...fs/afs800/afs810/checklist/media/aero-exp.doc

However, if you are getting your CMEL as your initial as a way to gain the most twin time for the least amount of flight time, then I'm not sure why you wouldn't do all 20 hrs of (b)(3) in a twin.


Section 61.129: Aeronautical experience.
(b) For an airplane multiengine rating...
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a multiengine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered...
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor...

BTW, this topic was discused at length a few weeks ago: http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/59515-commercial-cross-country-requirements.html