CMEL in an old old bird

J

JordanD

Here so I don’t get fined
I've got a few concerns about taking my CMEL in an old plane. It's a 1958 Piper Apache, so the information on the systems in the POH is virtually nonexistant. I know the basic outline of how the gear system works, but other than that there really isn't much. Can a DPE trip me up on this, or can you only learn so much with the little information in the POH? To make matters worse it's a Geronimo converson so a lot of the information in the actual POH isn't even relevant anymore.

Also... one of the things that's giving me trouble is the single engine ILS. I'm having a hard time identifying the failed engine immediately when he pulls it and I'm under the hood, since visually I just see the horizon and instantaneously know which engine he pulled. Any tips to recognize it immediately?
 
JordanD said:
I've got a few concerns about taking my CMEL in an old plane. It's a 1958 Piper Apache, so the information on the systems in the POH is virtually nonexistant. I know the basic outline of how the gear system works, but other than that there really isn't much. Can a DPE trip me up on this, or can you only learn so much with the little information in the POH? To make matters worse it's a Geronimo converson so a lot of the information in the actual POH isn't even relevant anymore.

Also... one of the things that's giving me trouble is the single engine ILS. I'm having a hard time identifying the failed engine immediately when he pulls it and I'm under the hood, since visually I just see the horizon and instantaneously know which engine he pulled. Any tips to recognize it immediately?
Click to expand...

Tachometer? :-p
 
JordanD said:
I've got a few concerns about taking my CMEL in an old plane. It's a 1958 Piper Apache, so the information on the systems in the POH is virtually nonexistant. I know the basic outline of how the gear system works, but other than that there really isn't much. Can a DPE trip me up on this, or can you only learn so much with the little information in the POH? To make matters worse it's a Geronimo converson so a lot of the information in the actual POH isn't even relevant anymore.

Also... one of the things that's giving me trouble is the single engine ILS. I'm having a hard time identifying the failed engine immediately when he pulls it and I'm under the hood, since visually I just see the horizon and instantaneously know which engine he pulled. Any tips to recognize it immediately?
Click to expand...


Ever hear of the term dead foot = dead engine? If not, you will notice as soon as the DPE fails an engine...the plane will yaw towards it. Left engine failure (critcal engine) requires right rudder to compensate for the left yaw. The dead foot on the rudder or the foot not pushing the rudder is your failed engine.
 
Yeah, the main issue is it happening during the approach and I'm having a hard time staying head of everything.

I'm really a little more concerned about the systems for the oral. There just isn't much in the POH about any of it since the whole thing is maybe a quarter inch thick at best.
 
Step on the ball still applies when an engine fails. If your left engine fails the ball will swing to the right indicating the right engine is still producing power. The examiner failed the engine on my CMEL ride after the FAF so I did push up but left the good engine where it was since I was descending on the glide slope anyways at that point. Slamming the throttle up during the decent isn't needed. Make sure you know what power setting work best for each situation. In the Apache I found that 20" worked well on one engine to hold altitude in the pattern for a single engine landing. Once abeam I would go to 12". If you have both engines fly the pattern at 15".
 
I have taken 2 check rides in a 177 with an equally small POH. I found that it worked to my advantage in some ways. For example the gear system works similar to that of a 172 or 182 RG where pressure holds the gear up. I was asked at what pressure does the pump re-energize. That's in the POH for a 172 or 182, but the 177 book doesn't publish the number. I was able to answer it with an "I don't know" and that was a perfectly acceptable answer.

I don't know about your plane, but mine doesn't even publish Vx or Vy. You can figure it out to within a few mph, but it's not published.
 
dmahan said:
I have taken 2 check rides in a 177 with an equally small POH. I found that it worked to my advantage in some ways. For example the gear system works similar to that of a 172 or 182 RG where pressure holds the gear up. I was asked at what pressure does the pump re-energize. That's in the POH for a 172 or 182, but the 177 book doesn't publish the number. I was able to answer it with an "I don't know" and that was a perfectly acceptable answer.

I don't know about your plane, but mine doesn't even publish Vx or Vy. You can figure it out to within a few mph, but it's not published.
Click to expand...
It's one of those "between xx and xx mph" type deals. Most of the data in the POH is completely useless anyway because of the Geronimo conversion.
 
JordanD said:
It's one of those "between xx and xx mph" type deals. Most of the data in the POH is completely useless anyway because of the Geronimo conversion.
Click to expand...
even with the conversion you should know the published VMC speed as that is critical to flight safety
 
As someone else suggested stepping on the ball. It might take a little while to comprehend what you see on the DG, but a ball slipping out one direction or the other would be a quick indication as to which engine is failed, as you 'step on the ball' then dead foot dead engine. If you have access to maintenance manuals, that would definitely be a good way to learn the aircraft's systems.
 
Four tanks to feed two engines. Can not transfer but can feed any engine from any tank with the cross feed valve. It's actually a pretty simple design, works well for training.

If the hydraulic system is the same as the lethargic 150hp & 160hp Apache, the pump is only on one engine for gear and flaps. If that engine fails, manually extend the gear with 40+ cycles of the hand pump. That's what our DPE wants and he fails the engine while intercepting the localizer. That way you have to manage navigation and systems.

Weight on wheels valve on one main gear. The gear won't retract until that valve changes from the weight on wheels position. Pretty simple. Tap the brakes when retracting and ignore the burning rubber smell while retracting. The nose wheel rubs on a rubber strip in the nose when it retracts.

I did my multi in a 160hp Apache and it was tired when I flew it. But it was cheap and got the job done. I can still hear my instructor "Mixtures, props, throttle, gear up, flaps up, blue line, identify, verify...."
 
Its ok if it takes longer to recognize the dead engine...number 1 priority is fly the airplane 1st. If you lose an engine on takeoff you dont want to mess with the engine yet...fly the airplane and when you got it under control then work on the engine failure procedures
 
CFI A&P said:
Four tanks to feed two engines. Can not transfer but can feed any engine from any tank with the cross feed valve. It's actually a pretty simple design, works well for training.

If the hydraulic system is the same as the lethargic 150hp & 160hp Apache, the pump is only on one engine for gear and flaps. If that engine fails, manually extend the gear with 40+ cycles of the hand pump. That's what our DPE wants and he fails the engine while intercepting the localizer. That way you have to manage navigation and systems.

Weight on wheels valve on one main gear. The gear won't retract until that valve changes from the weight on wheels position. Pretty simple. Tap the brakes when retracting and ignore the burning rubber smell while retracting. The nose wheel rubs on a rubber strip in the nose when it retracts.

I did my multi in a 160hp Apache and it was tired when I flew it. But it was cheap and got the job done. I can still hear my instructor "Mixtures, props, throttle, gear up, flaps up, blue line, identify, verify...."
Click to expand...
the one I flew had a backup electric pump incase the engine driven one failed and could be activated by a switch on the panel.
 
Other sources of information for older birds like this would be to get the maintenance manual somehow, and the type certificate data sheet (TCDS) from the FAA website.
 
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