"Cleared in the class Bravo" Or am I?...

AZflyboy

AZflyboy

Well-Known Member
I fly survey airplanes allover and this has happened to me now a few times while in different Class B's and it was more frequent in Houston.

I will takeoff from a little Class D or even Hobby and after already receiving my squawk code on the ground for Survey work, they hand me off to departure, I will get a clearance to climb to 2,000 feet for a minute or so, then approach will clear me to 3,500 which is in the bravo but I almost never hear "Cleared into the Bravo." To be completely honest I had stopped even asking if I was cleared in after a few weeks of asking because it seemed to be pissing off the controllers by me verifying my Bravo clearance every day, never once had an issue where a controller has questioned why I am in the bravo without an actual clearance after 6-7 hours being in the airspace. I always call them over the phone before I take off and Let them know when I will be in the air, where i will be working at and any other pertinent info they need from me so it's not like they have no clue who I am.

Now I know that you have to hear a verbal "You are cleared into the Class B" but is there something else that I am missing where the controllers can get around by knowing who you are ,what you are doing and exactly where you will be but seem to clear you in without actually saying it? I usually am very good about asking this kind of stuff to ATC but when it happens almost everyday and you are driving the controllers nuts to begin with who are moving jets out of my way just so I can fly back and forth lines taking pics, in the way of arrivals and departures It becomes hard to do and I don't want to be kicked out of the airspace over it or adding to the list of reasons for them to kick me out. Houston controllers though have been extremely nice and I would have to say they really have gone out of there way for my buddies and I, but it just seems to be something that's been happening to me and a few other pilot's lately.
 
AZflyboy said:
To be completely honest I had stopped even asking if I was cleared in after a few weeks of asking
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Now I know that you have to hear a verbal "You are cleared into the Class B".
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lolwut

If it's something that even has the remote possibility of me getting violated, I couldn't give less of a rat's ass of the controller gets their panties in a twist, I'm verifying. A former coworker of mine got into trouble in almost this exact way in Dallas.

My life>my certificates>my airplane>finishing a few lines.
 
JordanD said:
lolwut

If it's something that even has the remote possibility of me getting violated, I couldn't give less of a rat's ass of the controller gets their panties in a twist, I'm verifying. A former coworker of mine got into trouble in almost this exact way in Dallas.

My life>my certificates>my airplane>finishing a few lines.
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In the words of a very wise man - one who frequents these very forums...ASS, LICENSE, JOB!!! IN THAT ORDER!
 
JordanD said:
lolwut

If it's something that even has the remote possibility of me getting violated, I couldn't give less of a rat's ass of the controller gets their panties in a twist, I'm verifying. A former coworker of mine got into trouble in almost this exact way in Dallas.

My life>my certificates>my airplane>finishing a few lines.
Click to expand...

In the words of a very wise man - one who frequents these very forums...ASS, LICENSE, JOB!!! IN THAT ORDER!
 
I would think that since you already have a discrete code issued by Clearance, and they clear you to an altitude within the Class B, that's your clearance. Otherwise they would tell you to remain clear and contact Approach.

FWIW, I have never been told, "Cleared into the Class B" while on an IFR clearance in 20+ years of flying. I have been told that while flying VFR while squawking 1200 and calling to transition. Then they give you a discrete code and let you in, or tell you to scram.
 
Cptnchia said:
FWIW, I have never been told, "Cleared into the Class B" while on an IFR clearance in 20+ years of flying.
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You wouldn't. IFR, you are on a clearance. "Cleared into the Class Bravo" would be completely redundant and unnecessary.

VFR, the discrete code and altitude mean nothing. Amazingly there are actually FAA Chief Counsel opinions that say so. So no ass-u-&-me'd VFR Bravo clearances for me. Having been in the situation in which I was cleared into the Bravo by controller A but later asked by controller B what the heck I was doing there, it was comforting to know nobody had to "assume" anything.

So,VFR, I would not care the proverbial rat's ass about asking a controller to spend the short airtime to say tag "Confirm N34X is cleared into the Bravo" when reading back that 3500 altitude instruction. That's the controller's attitude problem, not yours. (My second favorite response - my brand new favorite is the subject of another thread) was on the missed for a practice approach near Denver. The approach itself was entirely below the Class B but the climb in the missed would, unless I did an intermediate level off, bring me into it. My "Confrim clearend into the Class Barvao" was met with a very friendly "Oh yeah, I guess I gotta do that. Cleared into the Class Bravo."
 
aviatorx43 said:
Did they give you a heading too or just an altitude?
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Wouldn't matter. 2010 Dormire Interpretation
First, you question whether the vector providing the heading and altitude assignment is a clearance under § 91.131 (a)(1) to enter the Los Angeles Class B airspace. The answer is no. A pilot must specifically receive an ATC clearance to enter the class B airspace. The issuance of a vector provides navigation information but does not provide clearance from ATC to enter the subject airspace.​
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
You wouldn't. IFR, you are on a clearance. "Cleared into the Class Bravo" would be completely redundant and unnecessary.

VFR, the discrete code and altitude mean nothing. Amazingly there are actually FAA Chief Counsel opinions that say so. So no ass-u-&-me'd VFR Bravo clearances for me. Having been in the situation in which I was cleared into the Bravo by controller A but later asked by controller B what the heck I was doing there, it was comforting to know nobody had to "assume" anything.

So,VFR, I would not care the proverbial rat's ass about asking a controller to spend the short airtime to say tag "Confirm N34X is cleared into the Bravo" when reading back that 3500 altitude instruction. That's the controller's attitude problem, not yours. (My second favorite response - my brand new favorite is the subject of another thread) was on the missed for a practice approach near Denver. The approach itself was entirely below the Class B but the climb in the missed would, unless I did an intermediate level off, bring me into it. My "Confrim clearend into the Class Barvao" was met with a very friendly "Oh yeah, I guess I gotta do that. Cleared into the Class Bravo."
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Exactly what I was getting at. Prior to departing, He told them he would be in the the class B. CD gave him a squawk and Dep handed him off to App. They did not terminate radar services and tell him to remain clear. Yes it's an assumption, but either all the controllers are really bad at their jobs, or they coordinated the handoff just like an IFR handoff.
 
Cptnchia said:
Exactly what I was getting at. Prior to departing, He told them he would be in the the class B. CD gave him a squawk and Dep handed him off to App. They did not terminate radar services and tell him to remain clear. Yes it's an assumption, but either all the controllers are really bad at their jobs, or they coordinated the handoff just like an IFR handoff.
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My point is that I won't work on an assumption when it takes almost zero effort to be certain.
 
Cptnchia said:
Exactly what I was getting at. Prior to departing, He told them he would be in the the class B. CD gave him a squawk and Dep handed him off to App. They did not terminate radar services and tell him to remain clear. Yes it's an assumption, but either all the controllers are really bad at their jobs, or they coordinated the handoff just like an IFR handoff.
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Yes but departing VFR from a class B airport clearance delivery will still tell you "cleared into the class B"
 
If faced with 1) hearing frustration in a controller's voice over confirming a clearance or B) leaving it ambiguous and potentially getting violated to save the controller from getting frustrated, I'd take option 1.

I've never heard of any pilot getting investigated for confirming an ambiguous instruction.
 
Cptnchia said:
I would think that since you already have a discrete code issued by Clearance, and they clear you to an altitude within the Class B, that's your clearance. Otherwise they would tell you to remain clear and contact Approach.

FWIW, I have never been told, "Cleared into the Class B" while on an IFR clearance in 20+ years of flying. I have been told that while flying VFR while squawking 1200 and calling to transition. Then they give you a discrete code and let you in, or tell you to scram.
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Took off out of HND with a discreet code and everything coordinated with Vegas, got curious as I was coming up to the bravo shelf and asked if I was cleared in... Got a big fat NOPE.
 
Cptnchia said:
Exactly what I was getting at. Prior to departing, He told them he would be in the the class B. CD gave him a squawk and Dep handed him off to App. They did not terminate radar services and tell him to remain clear. Yes it's an assumption, but either all the controllers are really bad at their jobs, or they coordinated the handoff just like an IFR handoff.
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Class B is inherently different than transitioning class C or D airspace because it required a specific clearance. What you're talking about would satisfy your requirements to get into C or D airspace (the notion that pilots in radar contact are not expected to coordinate their own transitions through C or D airspace).

Whether the controllers coordinated your entry into the Class B or not, if you did not receive a specific clearance to operate within the B airspace, you are not in compliance with 91.131 (a)(1).

Controller A may have given you instructions that cause entry into the Class B. Controller B may very well have been expecting you. But, unless you're cleared, you're not legal.
 
scott_l said:
Yes but departing VFR from a class B airport clearance delivery will still tell you "cleared into the class B"
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Taking off VFR out of some Class Bs, I'll switch to departure they'll say "Radar contact, cleared into the Class Bravo." I'm thinking to myself, well I sure hope I am I've been in the Class B since they cleared me for takeoff...
 
JustinS said:
Taking off VFR out of some Class Bs, I'll switch to departure they'll say "Radar contact, cleared into the Class Bravo." I'm thinking to myself, well I sure hope I am I've been in the Class B since they cleared me for takeoff...
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I once heard a knucklehead issue the same clearance on initial contact to a departure and then argue with himself out loud over if that specific instruction was necessary or if he needed to issue a clearance to exit the Bravo. I face palmed so hard I nearly broke my wrist and gave myself a concussion.
 
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