Class B Frustration at U42 (South of KSLC)

R

ruth

New Member
I'm a CFII and use to do alot of IFR flight instruction in the California Bay Area. Now I am based just south of KSLC at U42. I have gotten frustrated now that I am doing IFR instruction in the Salt Lake City Area. Here is the issue....

It is very difficult to get an IFR clearance into our home base at U42 (or out of it for that matter).

Recently, I filed a 60 nm IFR flightplan from an airport north of the Class B to U42. Later that day (~ 6 hours later), I departed KBMC on time and in VFR conditions and, while airborne, called approach to pick up my filed IFR clearance. It was a beautiful VFR day but it was a training flight for a student and thus I wanted the IFR clearance.

I was told the clearance was not ready and would not be ready for at least an hour. He then told me (and I quote as close to verbatum as possible) ... "be advised that the Class B airspace exists for routing aircraft into and out of Salt Lake City International airport".

I'm an ATP rated pilot and am comfortable working with controllers. I know how to respectfully and professionally work with the various controllers. It was clear, he was not going to give me my IFR clearance so I advised I could do the flight VFR and requested advisories and clearance into the Class B so that my student could still shoot the approach as published. After some polite prodding, I received my clearance into Class B.

So what is up? This flight was at a slow time for KSLC. I use to fly alot out of Palo Alto airport (PAO) which is squeezed between KSFO to the north, KOAK to the east and KSJC to the south. Despite this tight airspace, these controllers were very accomodating and did everything possible to help the pilot obtain the clearance he needed. Why is the system around the Class B for KSLC so different/difficult?

I'm not complaining. I am honestly looking for some information to help me understand and also to see if folks think there is anything that can be done to improve it.

Doesn't the Class B exist due to high traffic demands in the overall area and don't controllers have some duty to serve aircraft other than those coming into KSLC?

It is not just this isolated incident. It has been a continuous struggle over the past 6-9 months to get any Class B clearance here regardless of the time of day, how busy or what the weather conditions are. I waited 2 hours on the ground at KPVU to get an IFR clearance back to U42 when the weather shut down one evening. I bet if I was coming down from KBOI to U42 and picking up my clearance from a Boise controller, he would have cleared me as filed and I would have gotten into U42 sooner. Since the KPVU clearance was picked up from Salt Lake, they simply refused/delayed issuing it. Seems a bit unreasonable to me but perhaps I am missing something important.

Two questions for the controllers on the board or to those pilots who may have some experience in this area...

- Why do you think this situation exists as it does. If the Bay Area controllers could work me in regularly to KPAO with my more complex/controlled airspace, why is KSLC so different. Again, I'm not complaining, just looking for information.

- Is there a reasonable avenue for general aviation pilots to go through to work with Center/Approach/Departure and see if there might be some middle ground that works for all parties involved to make the neighborhing airports more accessible for IFR flights?

This forum is a great resource. Thanks to all of you who put in time to sharing your knowledge and ideas. I look forward to any and all suggestions...
 
My guess... you might have done something to piss him off. IDK, im kinda blowing smoke out of my ass, but i havent had that experience with any controller anywhre. My typical call-up to new orleans appch is:

N.O appch: 2EJ with yaNO appch: 2EJ cleared as filed, climb mantain requested altitude.


Mind you i, not that casual with all controllers, we just have a special relationship down here.

Now to answer you4 question, its because their mormon.

Flame on. :cool:
 
I am not based there, nor have I even flown there much...only been there for one week. However, we had much the same issue, ATC was fine with us doing whatever we wanted...outside the B. Which pretty much covers the whole area, except right against the mountains on the east side. So we went to the tower and had a nice chat with the managers about how we can work together for our particular operation. Some things we learned:

When they have a north flow, it seems they're very limited on where they can bring aircraft in at. From the south, there's basically one entrance, through the gap in the mountains south of Salt Lake. For arrivals from the north, they basically only have a left pattern, and it has to fit between the mountains to the west, south, and east. The downwind leg for that comes in right over U42. They seemed more accommodating to us with a south flow, but even so, their departures are going straight out, right where you'd be trying to climb out of U42. Also, they have the air force base to the north with lots of traffic going into and out of there, too.

I thought the wait we were told (1+ hour) trying to pick up our IFR out of there was quite excessive, too. I guess the difference between PAO and U42 is the mountains...they're taller and quite a bit more restrictive in their placement.
 
Honestly I have no idea what this not ready for an hour BS is. I can't imagine a reason for it. And as to the Class B thing, sure it exist primarily for the traffic into and out of the main airport but I have never seen an IFR aircraft denied entry if their route was through it simply because they weren't landing at the primary airport. I am stumped as to a reason.

Only thing I can suggest is picking up the IFR on the ground. Sometimes when we are busy a IFR pick up in the air can be difficult to accomodate immediately (but an hour is rediculous)
 
If you've filed IFR, there is no excuse for a 1 hour delay (barring large system-wide flow delays)....you've filed, and whether you're spinning a propeller, or throwing hot gas, you've been entered into the system.

From what I understand, the clearance system is a monstrous traffic routing system designed to compute a "solution" to the inputs given. Those inputs are filed IFR flight plans. So, from my perspective, you should be able to get a clearance.

With that said, perhaps that particular controller didn't have time...use your resources...get a clearance from the FSS...or call a nearby "clearance delivery" freq and get your CRAFT on...

Unless you're requesting to do "multiple approaches/hold as published" to the primary runway at KSLC, my belief is - you should get your clearance, everytime.
 
...and, ask for clarification from the FSDO...what's the "party line" on how to solve this.

Start asking the controller to "mark the tape", and offer your evidence as attempts to obtain your clearance.

...sorry, not trying to be rude, but AN HOUR!!?? (you converted local to GMT correctly, right?! :))
 
Thanks for the healthy discussion here. Very helpful.

On another board, I have been advised that TRACON may have to shut off arrivals into KSLC for me to depart IFR out of or into U42.....but an hour wait (or two!) Seems to me, they should be able to fit me into the que the same as any airplane arriving KSLC on a previously filed IFR flight plan.

Two followup comments/questions...
- Sounds like a call to AOPA might be a good first step.
- Next a call to KSLC's TRACON. Have any of you gone this route before (calling TRACON). Any suggestions on how to handle the call. My ultimate goal would be to get a group together of GA IFR pilots and controllers and figure out how we can work together to reasonably accomodate IFR traffic into & out of U42. At a minimum, I'd like to know times of the day when TRACON can be reasonably expected to handle such requests.

Thanks again for the great discussion. It has been positive and it has been very helpful.
 
ruth said:
- Sounds like a call to AOPA might be a good first step.
- Next a call to KSLC's TRACON. Any suggestions on how to handle the call. My ultimate goal would be to get a group together of GA IFR pilots and controllers and figure out how we can work together to reasonably accomodate IFR traffic into & out of U42. At a minimum, I'd like to know times of the day when TRACON can be reasonably expected to handle such requests.
Click to expand...

1. AOPA sounds like a great route.
2. Heard the adage about honey vs. vinegar? :)

Even looking at a terminal chart, I'm not sure why they can't fix this problem (either sequence you in, or redesign the approach to U42). I've done practice approaches into KBFI with KSEA just miles away...the only limitation I've been given is to follow the "flow" of the big guys....if they're landing south, we practice south.
 
From my friend's stories about getting his instrument at PAO, I believe the IFR obstacle departure procedure necessitates that you be routed via the SJC VOR as your first fix. In the case of northwest flow, you are not only climbing out below the final approach course for the parallel runways 28L/R at SFO, you are also pointed head-on into the SJC Rwy 30L/R departures. This would most likely necessitate coordination between Norcal TRACON and SJC ATCT, yet the controllers are very accommodating.

This U42 situation sounds comparatively mundane, and it's very surprising to hear the controllers have been so inflexible about it. Please keep us posted on what you find out.

I was under the impression that SLC wasn't one of the busier Class Bs out there. :confused: (Ranked 24th busiest airport in the country.)
 
I'm surprised you are having problems. They have always been verry accomodating to me. The last time I filed IFR I departed KBTF and didn't get my clearance until i was almost to the FFU VOR but even then they cleared me through the Bravo airspace and got me up to my altitude with little delay. I would try calling the tower and see what they have to say.
 
I would try calling the Operations Manager (OM) at the TRACON. I would also advise you to be very polite. Tell him you are having long delays into and out of U42. Ask him for some solutions to get out/in Faster. Also ask for a tour, Knowledge is power, if you know what they are looking at it, it can help you in the long run.

I had the same problem with an airport, KGPM in the dallas area. Up until this past Nov. there was no way out of the airport when DFW was in a north flow. Major delays into and out of this airport, IFR. And yes we had to build a hole, using two controllers and jets and slow pistons...Wow that was a work of art. But there was no way it was going to happen during a busy time of the day.
Oh even if the WX is VFR we still provide IFR separation to IFR aircraft. What hurts us the most is protecting for the missed approach.

Good Luck
 
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