ChemTrail fleet, pilots needed? - the real story this time

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Qutch nothing you posted show the flights are happening yet. Yes, there is a lot of talk of how planes can be used in GeoEngineering and there has been some one off testing (HARP) but as far as I know, know is doing flights in the open yet and no one has proof the flights are taking place......


Proof of Flights - Each person is entitled to establish for themself the acceptable threshold they require for proof. . I am limited in what I can say about ongoing test flights. . But I believe some on JC know quite a bit about Federal Government operations like this, and don't need my help. . Gonzo, it is unlikely that they would send Lawrence Livermore Lab scientists, or NASA/Aurora affiliated scientists out to shake people up, selling a radical idea that they hadn't bothered to do a little testing on first, just to make sure the SRM flights do what they want them to do. . In fact, it would be irresponsible. . Imagine the protests, hysteria, mass demonstrations and lawsuits that SRM flights are bound to trigger if/when they are formally announced. . Part 1 of this thread is in the Lav Section, dealing with concealment vs. disclosure of Classified Government Covert Operations (see link below). . It is necessary to understand some history on this. . Government and industry will test products like this out first (protected by classification - National Security), then drag the public along later (something like the illegal Bush warrantless wiretapping program). . First they do it, then they deny it, then they disclose it, and finally they make it retroactively legal. . Government and industry are not going to go to this much trouble to sell the public a program that they have not bothered testing first. . Test Program flights are in the air. . But its OK with me if you want to wait 40 years for the documents to be Declassified.


http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/chemtrails-for-realz-this-time.132101/ . To understand this thread, it may help to review posts #5, #8, #12, #32, #126, and #138 in this Lav Section thread.


The Big Picture - Gonzo, I don't care to convince everyone on JC that Solar Radiation Management Flights (aka "chemtrail flights") take off everyday of the week. . I intentionally chose this topic to illustrate that even this subject, one continually ridiculed on JC as a non-existent fantasy, is a subject of serious discussion among academics. . I chose it to demonstrate that, even though as pilots we might be expected by others to understand the chemtrail controversy, we were so busy laughing, we have completely missed out on the scientific, engineering & political debate now underway regarding Solar Radiation Management Flights. . Ironic I thought, since we would be expected to fly them. . If some people still feel the whole SRM/chemtrail thing is entirely a hoax, until they can personally do a jumpseat ride-along, I'll respect their decision. .


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Qutch, I am not asking you to convince everyone all I am asking is some proof that GeoEngineering/ SRM flight are happening. You claim it is everyday of the week but can give no proof no photos of planes getting loaded, no increase in sulfur or other minerals that people want to use for GeoEngineering. I am not saying zero flights are taking place in fact in my post I said I know there are one off test flight happening.
 
Qutch, I am not asking you to convince everyone all I am asking is some proof that GeoEngineering/ SRM flight are happening. You claim it is everyday of the week but can give no proof no photos of planes getting loaded, no increase in sulfur or other minerals that people want to use for GeoEngineering. I am not saying zero flights are taking place in fact in my post I said I know there are one off test flight happening.
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Photo proof

In this day and age, no photo or video provides proof of anything. . Even if I had taken a photo myself, I couldn't prove its origin or provenance/chain of custody over the web, and could not post it if Classified. . If I get an unclassified US Gov certified photo, or mineral/air sample report, published on a US Gov. url web site, I'll pass it along to you. . But, since the US Gov officially denies (sort of, as they dance around the issue) that they've even considered doing SRM flights, it seems unlikely that they'll publish something like that intentionally. . You say "I know there are" ...some sort of test flight(s) happening? . Well then, why not let it go at that?

Gonzo. . I said I don't care to spend my time 'trying to convince everyone of everyday flights', just to satisfy a few doubters that there is more to this story than complete fantasy. . That's not a flight scheduling declaration on my part. . Whether test flights are daily, weekly, last month, or around-the-clock wouldn't be something I could satisfy to anyone's satisfaction from a photo or non-governmental mineral report, particularly not to someone who has made up their mind already. . Besides, after that embarrassing lamp shade incident at Vice President Cheney's birthday party, I'm no longer sent the SRM flight sortie schedule. . As I explained to the Secret Service as they were escorting me out, "I only had 1 drink officer. . Really, I swear."

Keep an open mind. . There's more.
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......continued from above:

Qutch, I am not asking you to convince everyone all I am asking is some proof ......... [you have provided no proof of ] increase in sulfur or other minerals that people want to use for GeoEngineering. I am not saying zero flights are taking place in fact in my post I said I know there are one off test flight happening.
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Patents
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Gonzo, if you take the time to actually listen to the Lawrence Livermore scientist video that inigo88 and I posted 2wice above in posts #2 & #11 - ("sulfur") , or Professor Keith . http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iuZFkD56S-k#t=257s - (4:15 on clip - "sulfur or aluminum"), or read the NASA/Aurora Flight Sciences report , http://people.ucalgary.ca/~keith/Misc/AuroraGeoReport.pdf , you'll find plenty of evidence of "sulfur or other minerals that people want to use for GeoEngineering" SRM flights. . Just take the time to carefully review the evidence I posted here, and in the Lavatory thread.

In addition, I'm seeing an increase in Patent activity surrounding this technological concept, some Classified, some not. . I'm not vouching for the effectiveness or content of any, but I'll post one Unclassified example listed at the Patent Office. . You can find more on your own. . Here's a listing from the US Patent Office (.gov url) going back as far as the 90s. . I think the patent may have been purchased by Hughes Aircraft, which has a long history of providing Covert Operational support to the U.S. Government. . It seems unlikely that Hughes would buy the patent rights to something they felt unlikely to be used. . If you still feel this proves nothing, well, I guess you're right. . Individually, they prove nothing. . It's the total picture I'm piecing together here. . You can wait for Official Gov photos to emerge though if you want to. . Do you have a problem with patent docs listed on US Gov web sites that list the chemicals & minerals they want to use?

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http://www.docstoc.com/docs/3344696/Hughes-Aircraft-Chemtrail-Patent


From US Patent Office doc:
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"This invention relates to a method for the reduction of global warming resulting from the greenhouse effect, and in particular to a method which involves the seeding of the earth's stratosphere with Welsbach-like materials."
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http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5003186.PN.&OS=PN/5003186&RS=PN/5003186 . (US Patent Office)

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=05003186&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DPALL%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526s1%3D5003186.PN.%2526OS%3DPN%2F5003186%2526RS%3DPN%2F5003186&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page . (US Patent Office)

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I always check the "chem-trail" tanks on every pre-flight. I generally use the code word "lav water" when speaking to ops when this is low.
 
Swore we wouldn't post on a nutjob chemtrail thread but what you put up seems pretty straight forward. No body has been able to dispute any of this and after going through everything I can't see any way to attack it either. Freakin people out here but convincing. We've got 6 guys here who aern't studying for their check rides because they're glued to this thread. Up late checking all this out, we are so screwed. Thanks for nothing Qutch.

Questions from the group

-Where do you find this information? Secret book or website? We've never seen any of this before and this isn't what google puts up when we research chemtrails. Google's results are mostly nutjob crazy stuff. What a waste of time. Is there a REAL INFO button on google we don't know about?

-If this is classified secret, how can you be talking about it on the web?

-In the Lavatory thread you said others at JC knew parts of this and bits of this are scattered about on other jc threads. Where? We've searched and there isn't anything about this in any other threads. jc or other pilot forums.

-So, putting aside the scientific risk of doing SRM flights, you've made this seem pretty straightforward, it's just a global warming issue. Politically sensitive like all global warming issues. Fine. But not an evil conspiracy to kill everybody like the nutjobz antigovernment types say. Then why are these people trying to stir up all the aerosol population and mind control eugenics terror excitement? If these folks are so into this issue, don't they know about SRM too? How did SRM get magnified into eugenics?

-We have no scruples and we have loans to repay. We're going to need jobs. Where do we apply?
 
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WacoFan, Eugenics, forced sterilization, and The White House

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.......Then why are these people trying to stir up all the aerosol population and mind control eugenics terror excitement? If these folks are so into this issue, don't they know about SRM too? How did SRM get magnified into eugenics?

What you described are not "chem trailz" as the nutjobs think of them. What you are describing would be like setting off lots of volcanoes. No mind controlling aerosols.

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Correct. . I'm only describing the volcano simulation SRM flights, but others are describing different potential purposes of these flights, such as forced population control and eugenics. . And that hysteria is influencing the SRM rollout, which makes it relevant to the SRM story. . These nutjob claims may sound like science fiction. . However, the nutjobs as you describe them have their own story to tell, and although their theory sounds nuts, not all of its proponents can be dismissed too easily. . The trail leads to the White House. . WacoFan reads extensively outside JC forums and has tried to get traction on the eugenics subject inside JC. . It's not my position here, and I hesitate to get into it because this kind of thing sends some JC members into orbit. . But I understand it.
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1) JC's WacoFan re: Presidential Advisor John Holdren

Wacofan, who seems well read and writes authoritatively on global warming issues, has a big problem with Obama's Chief Science Advisor, Dr. John Holdren. . Wacofan repeatedly sites a book which Holdren co-authored years ago which proposed some unpleasant solutions to the planet's problems. . Check out his posts on other threads, as he suggests.

...... the point that I have been making about Holdren over the last months (do a post search on the work Eugenics and read the posts of mine that are shown) - basically that it is difficult to take Holdren seriously because he was Chicken Little about the population control problem and has been shown to be wrong - so why are we to believe him about Global Warming or other things......The depth to which Holdren lays out ways to combat population growth, in my opinion, extend far past the simple writing of a textbook.

May be a silly argument, but Obama's own science czar pretty much is down with the eugenics/forced sterilization crowd. That was when the population explosion was going to bring about the earths demise (which was the another science scare prior to global warming). I think that it may in fact be real, but without everyone on board it won't be a significant change. Why impose one more reason to make America a weaker national economically (via cap-trade) when in the long run, without international compliance, it will do nothing anyway...except make us poor?

......The coming Ice Age that people were crying about in the 70's and early 80's. The catastrophic population boom that was going to have us all starved and living like Ethiopians that Holdren (Obama's science Czar) and others were espousing in the 70's (to include suggesting a world government, strict population controls, eugenics and forced birth control, etc)...all things that were going to happen because "science" said so. .....

John Holdren, Obama's "Science Czar" authored a book in the 70's regarding overpopulation (which in the 70's was the imminent global/environmental disaster in waiting). In this book he advocates eugenics, forced sterilization, ceding sovereignty to an international body to distribute natural resources on a global scale as well as set birth quotas and other things that are pretty disgusting.

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Acadia, who also writes well on the GW subject, does not dispute WacoFan, but he's less alarmed by Holdren's writings.
He [Holdren] may have agressive views about overpopulation, but nothing in that text or other quotes suggest that he was selling the idea of forced population control. It is possible to discuss these things without seriously suggesting that they be implemented.


Some on JC, and in the Gov, may be more open to the idea of opening the door to Government sponsored Eugenics.
........Now all that being said - I am a proponent of ethical eugenics......I think the government could do more to discourage some of its citizens from reproducing.....
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The concern that some ChemTrail theorists have is that they (I'm not including WacoFan or others here in this chemtrail group), like WacoFan and Fox News, are alarmed seeing Dr. Holdren (who may be included in the ChemTrail/SRM group) inside the White House. . As a result, the ChemTrail theorists you described as "nutjobs" have connected Dr. Holdren's alleged eugenics - forced sterilization - world government ideas to the proposed SRM flights, believing the SRM/Chem flights to be a cover story for eugenics. . It's another one of those interesting government related stories that, as WacoFan found out, doesn't always fly on JC.

(if you want more on this, it might be safer to PM or email me)

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Some on JC, and in the Gov, may be more open to the idea of opening the door to Government sponsored Eugenics.

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I think that might have been my post - if it was, I have no problem owning up to it (but I appreciate your effort to protect my identity). But yes, I am a believer in the utility of eugenics, but NEVER in any case, forced eugenics. The problem, as history has shown us, is that it's a very steep and slippery slope to walk across. Perhaps too much so to ever justifiably be able to implement reasonable efforts to encourage voluntary programs. But we already have a de facto eugenics program in place by way of the legalization of abortion. Experts predicted that crime would continue to soar into the 90s and beyond. But it didn't. Why? According to good data on the matter, because the fetuses aborted after the legalization of abortion in the 70s were, probability wise, more likely to become criminals given correlations with a variety of known sociological contributors (single parent, impoverished SES, etc.)

I certainly wouldn't mind discussing it with folks, as it's certainly not a hill I'm willing to die on at the moment. I'm open to ideas and opinions as always.
 
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I think that might have been my post - if it was, I have no problem owning up to it (but I appreciate your effort to protect my identity). But yes, I am a believer in the utility of eugenics, but NEVER in any case, forced eugenics. The problem, as history has shown us, is that it's a very steep and slippery slope to walk across. Perhaps too much so to ever justifiably be able to implement reasonable efforts to encourage voluntary programs. But we already have a de facto eugenics program in place by way of the legalization of abortion. Experts predicted that crime would continue to soar into the 90s and beyond. But it didn't. Why? According to good data on the matter, because the fetuses aborted after the legalization of abortion in the 70s were, probability wise, more likely to become criminals given correlations with a variety of known sociological contributors (single parent, impoverished SES, etc.)

I certainly wouldn't mind discussing it with folks, as it's certainly not a hill I'm willing to die on at the moment. I'm open to ideas and opinions as always.


Alright, now you've forced me to do something I don't like to do. Log on. And I'm not happy about it.

I spent most of the last two nights trying to find mistakes with Qutch's chemtrail documentation and I can't. No one is disputing it. So I'll concede his point that there is at least more going on with this than we've been told. SRM flights. First time I've heard the term. I'll go apologize now to all those people I told there wasn't anything to chemtrails. But that's as far as I go. After that you lose me.

To begin with, I found Holdren's book proposing eugenics, Ecoscience. But I couldn't find anything showing Holdren, or anybody at White House level also discussing sprinkling the far upper atmosphere or outer space with anything like Qutch said. So far you've only showed it to be something the scientists are interested in. Nothing discussed at the White House policy makers level. If the White House is talking about it, I couldn't find anything convincing to prove that discussions have gone that high. Like you said, with a dot.gov or dot.whitehouse url.

Lastly, Murdoughnut has joined Obama's Science Advisor Holdren in contemplating eugenics, which I thought died with the Nazi scientists that we hung at Nuremberg. How can anybody justify such a thing in this day and age? Eugenic ideas eventually led to mass exterminations. Adolph Hitler praised it in Mein Kampf. It was popular at the beginning of the 20th Century but died out I thought after discovery of the Nazi death camps. How could Murdoughnut or Dr. Holdren justify reviving those ideas, with or without a climate crisis? I'm not comparing Murdoughnut or Holdren to the Nazis, but I can't understand how returning to those ideas could be defended considering what happened the last time.
 
Alright, now you've forced me to do something I don't like to do. Log on. And I'm not happy about it.

I spent most of the last two nights trying to find mistakes with Qutch's chemtrail documentation and I can't. No one is disputing it. So I'll concede his point that there is at least more going on with this than we've been told. SRM flights. First time I've heard the term. I'll go apologize now to all those people I told there wasn't anything to chemtrails. But that's as far as I go. After that you lose me.

To begin with, I found Holdren's book proposing eugenics, Ecoscience. But I couldn't find anything showing Holdren, or anybody at White House level also discussing sprinkling the far upper atmosphere or outer space with anything like Qutch said. So far you've only showed it to be something the scientists are interested in. Nothing discussed at the White House policy makers level. If the White House is talking about it, I couldn't find anything convincing to prove that discussions have gone that high. Like you said, with a dot.gov or dot.whitehouse url.

Lastly, Murdoughnut has joined Obama's Science Advisor Holdren in contemplating eugenics, which I thought died with the Nazi scientists that we hung at Nuremberg. How can anybody justify such a thing in this day and age? Eugenic ideas eventually led to mass exterminations. Adolph Hitler praised it in Mein Kampf. It was popular at the beginning of the 20th Century but died out I thought after discovery of the Nazi death camps. How could Murdoughnut or Dr. Holdren justify reviving those ideas, with or without a climate crisis? I'm not comparing Murdoughnut or Holdren to the Nazis, but I can't understand how returning to those ideas could be defended considering what happened the last time.

In 20-years, next to no children will be born with Down Syndrome. Eugenics? Yep. By way of the 90% of women who choose to abort a fetus that tests positive for the genetic trait. How can you come down on me for suggesting we start thinking about something that we ourselves (not the government) already utilize?

But here's an example that doesn't quite fit your mass extinction rush to assumption. Repeat drug offenders are offered $500 to undergo voluntary sterilization at no expense to them. Heavy drug addicts will likely take it up as it means a quick fix. The consequence? Well take a look at some of the children available for adoption here... http://www.adoptuskids.org/ ... who are suffering from severe fetal drug and alcohol related symptoms. If you can tell me there's a way to reduce the number of children who are born with such handicaps, and reduce the government's burden to care for them, I'm willing to listen.
 
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.....I spent most of the last two nights trying to find mistakes with Qutch's chemtrail documentation and I can't. No one is disputing it. So I'll concede his point that there is at least more going on with this than we've been told. SRM flights. First time I've heard the term. I'll go apologize now to all those people I told there wasn't anything to chemtrails. But that's as far as I go. After that you lose me.

To begin with, I found Holdren's book proposing eugenics, Ecoscience. But I couldn't find anything showing Holdren, or anybody at White House level also discussing sprinkling the far upper atmosphere or outer space with anything like Qutch said. So far you've only showed it to be something the scientists are interested in. Nothing discussed at the White House policy makers level. If the White House is talking about it, I couldn't find anything convincing to prove that discussions have gone that high. Like you said, with a dot.gov or dot.whitehouse url.....


I like that you're fact-checking my posts. . You might be correct about a lack of SRM/ChemTrail docs on the White House stationary. . I think I can document the connection with this. . Below is White House Science Advisor Dr. John Holdren. . Let me try to add up the picture this way.
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1) From the White House website - "Dr. Holdren holds advanced degrees in aerospace engineering and theoretical plasma physics from MIT and Stanford."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/ostp/about/leadershipstaff/director
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+ 2) Co-Author of EcoScience (proposes societal benefits of eugenics)
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+ 3) 'We have to keep SRM on the table...we might get desparate' (95 secs)


= Obama's Science Director is a potential advocate of both SRM and Eugenics


Add to that the traveling lectures being given by Gov scientists from Lawrence Livermore Laboratory (see post #2 above). . When Gov employees at that high level start trying to raise public acceptance of SRM (ChemTrail) flights, generally those lectures are approved at the highest levels of policy making. . In total, that's the picture that has eugenics critics worried, the notion that the Gov will resume the Classified experiments of the 50-70s. Worried that we're on the slippery slope Murdoughnut mentioned - again.
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In 20-years, next to no children will be born with Down Syndrome. Eugenics? Yep. By way of the 90% of women who choose to abort a fetus that tests positive for the genetic trait. How can you come down on me for suggesting we start thinking about something that we ourselves (not the government) already utilize?

But here's an example that doesn't quite fit your mass extinction rush to assumption. Repeat drug offenders are offered $500 to undergo voluntary sterilization at no expense to them. Heavy drug addicts will likely take it up as it means a quick fix. The consequence? Well take a look at some of the children available for adoption here...http://www.adoptuskids.org/ ... who are suffering from severe fetal drug and alcohol related symptoms. If you can tell me there's a way to reduce the number of children who are born with such handicaps, and reduce the government's burden to care for them, I'm willing to listen.


I went back and read your other posts on this. You've given it some thought. Where, and how, do we draw the line though? Your slippery slope comment. Enticing drug addicts to undergo sterilization for $500? What next? Enticing the poor to undergo sterilization for money? As plea bargains for people "accused" of crimes and held in custody by the government? Where does it stop? And letting our government add Eugenics to the NDAA, Patriot Act, warrantless wiretaps and sneak-n-peak break-ins to their other weapons against undesirables? I'm not arguing with your position that keeping drug addicts from having children would be preferable. I'm wondering if you've given any thought to how we could keep governments from getting out of control as Germany did in the 30-40s. Or as our own government apparently did with other types of experiments just a few decades ago. Again, your own warning about slippery slopes.

You said "How can you come down on me for suggesting we start thinking about something that we ourselves (not the government) already utilize?"

It's the government involvement part of your ideas that I'm most curious about. Is that something you've thought out carefully and you're really comfortable with?
 
I went back and read your other posts on this. You've given it some thought. Where, and how, do we draw the line though? Your slippery slope comment. Enticing drug addicts to undergo sterilization for $500? What next? Enticing the poor to undergo sterilization for money? As plea bargains for people "accused" of crimes and held in custody by the government? Where does it stop? And letting our government add Eugenics to the NDAA, Patriot Act, warrantless wiretaps and sneak-n-peak break-ins to their other weapons against undesirables? I'm not arguing with your position that keeping drug addicts from having children would be preferable. I'm wondering if you've given any thought to how we could keep governments from getting out of control as Germany did in the 30-40s. Or as our own government apparently did with other types of experiments just a few decades ago. Again, your own warning about slippery slopes.

You said "How can you come down on me for suggesting we start thinking about something that we ourselves (not the government) already utilize?"

It's the government involvement part of your ideas that I'm most curious about. Is that something you've thought out carefully and you're really comfortable with?

Honestly, I'm not "really comfortable with it". But I'm comfortable enough for the issue to at least be talked about, I think that's my point. Population control is such a taboo topic, and with good cause for the reasons you mentioned. But I've always been a faithful believer in our federal court system and its ability to protect our civil liberties.
 
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Using Existing Commercial Passenger Aircraft
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....... commercial aircraft (airlines and GA), spraying the skys with chemicals to alter weather patterns, and legit "chemtrails." .....Either out with it, or give it up...... Bring up some current information to support your theory with viable facts, and prove to me that there are indeed secret compartments on commercial aircraft.
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Another common misconception among pilots is that it would be necessary to install large tanks in compartments on their aircraft before those aircraft could play any role in so-called chemtrail flights. . They mistakenly believe that because there are no large unidentified tanks on their aircraft, suspicions that their aircraft could be drafted into the alleged chemtrail program is ridiculous. . The truth is, even this unlikely claim by protesters has some limited foundation behind it. . Scientific studies and patents on file with the US Patent Office openly discuss the feasibility of altering existing fuels (carried in existing fuel tanks, nano-particles perhaps). . If those efforts prove out, it would not be absolutely necessary to tell pilots the exact chemical makeup of their fuel, or its purpose. . Similar to Government mandates now for ethanol blends in automobile fuels, if a suitable risk/reward blend could be found, the Government could mandate either fuel additives to existing fuel, or small tanks designed to inject chemicals downstream of turbines. . In that way, theoretically the existing commercial passenger fleet could contribute to the so-called chemtrail GeoEngineering/SRM program.
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Below are two (2) documented examples of engineering work in this area:

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1- (from a Hughes Aircraft Patent) -"One proposed solution to the problem of global warming involves the seeding of the atmosphere with metallic particles. One technique proposed to seed the metallic particles was to add the tiny particles to the fuel of jet airliners, so that the particles would be emitted from the jet engine exhaust while the airliner was at its cruising altitude."
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5003186.PN.&OS=PN/5003186&RS=PN/5003186 . (US Patent Office)

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2 - "....some thrust augmentation may be realizable by injecting sulphuric acid downstream of the turbine, in a manner similar to a modern afterburner."
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~keith/Misc/AuroraGeoReport.pdf . (page 31)
Aurora (NASA affiliate) Flight Science's report on chemical delivery options by aircraft.

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NASA photos of existing contrail activity
(Keep an open mind - anything is possible)
NASA Contrail.jpg

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NASA Contrail2.jpg
 
Qutch said:
SRM Test Education Campaign run by EDF- (short version):


The part of this video that especially stuck with me was the concern raised over single countries acting unilaterally and affecting everyone. It's obvious they're referring to China, but per my Manhattan Project/Trinity Test examples earlier in this thread, the United States has never seemed to have an ethical problem with unilaterally testing extremely destructive new technologies.

So then the question becomes if we have been covertly testing SRM technology for the last decade or decades, who is delivering it and who is doing the data collection. The delivery options seem widespread, but the options for data collection of atmospheric conditions in the upper stratosphere (think above FL600) are limited. Who specializes in high altitude atmospheric research? Oh yeah...

NASA Johnson Space Center - WB-57 Canberra: "Still Going Strong At 59."
http://www.nasa.gov/missions/research/b-57_feature.html

B-57 Still Going Strong at 59
09.03.03

There are some things that continue to provide valuable service no matter what their age and the B-57 aircraft is one of them.

49586main_wb_2.jpg
Developed by a British firm, the English Electric Company Ltd. in 1944 the B-57 made its first flight in May of 1949.

At left: The NASA 926 WB-57 aircraft on a research mission gathering data to understand Earth's environment

The United States Air Force chose the B-57 Canberra to reinforce its aging Douglas B-26 Invader fleet from a flight demonstration of several aircraft in 1951. The B-57 made a record breaking flight across the Atlantic Ocean, without refueling, in only four hours and forty minutes. It won hands-down over all the others for its time.

Although various models were built, the "F" model survived with several modifications. The aircraft was put into service with the 58th Weather Reconnaissance Squadron at Kirtland, AFB in Albuquerque, New Mexico in 1964 and was designated as a WB-57F ("w" standing for weather).

49588main_wb_57.gif
At right: Payloads up to 6,000 pounds can be carried in the aircraft's belly, aft fuselage, tail cone, wing pods, wing hatches and/or the nose cone

After several years in service the wings showed signs of stress, corrosion and cracks, and it was decided to replace the wings on only a few aircraft and retire the rest because it was financially prohibitive to repair the entire fleet. In the meantime NASA had contracted the Air Force to operate research missions that were part of the Earth Resources Technology Satellite program (ERTS). NASA chose the WB-57F for its High Altitude Research Program. The two WB-57's were then assigned the numbers NASA 926 and NASA 928

The NASA 926 and NASA 928 high altitude weather aircraft can fly day and night with a range of approximately 2500 miles. Two crewmembers in pressurized suits pilot the plane to altitudes in excess of 60,000 feet and the aircraft can carry a payload of about 6,000 pounds.

49595main_wb_57personnel.jpg
At left: Flight and ground crew pose in front of one of the two WB-57's still in service

Research such as Cirrus Regional Study of Tropical Anvils and Cirrus Layers - Florida Area Cirrus Experiment (CRYSTAL - FACE) and Clouds and Water Vapor in the Climate System (CWVCS) join a long list of atmospheric and weather related experiments aided by the use of the WB-57.

NASA's Johnson Space Center (JSC) operates the only two WB-57's still flying in the world today from Ellington Field, Houston, Texas.


For further information please visit: http://jsc-aircraft-ops.jsc.nasa.gov/wb57/index.html

http://jsc-aircraft-ops.jsc.nasa.gov/wb57/

Mission Statement:


The NASA WB-57 Program provides unique, high-altitude airborne platforms to US Government agencies, academic institutions, and commercial customers in order to support scientific research and advanced technology development and testing at locations around the world. Mission examples include atmospheric and earth science, ground mapping, cosmic dust collection, rocket launch support, and test bed operations for future airborne or spaceborne systems.

NASA Dryden Flight Research Center (Edwards AFB) - Lockheed ER-2 Program
er2_large.jpg
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The ER-2 is a civilian version of the Air Force's U2-S reconnaisance platform. These high-altitude aircraft are used as platforms for investigations that cannot be accomplished by sensor platforms of the private sector. Aircraft and spacecraft have proven to be excellent platforms for remote and in situ sensing. The ER-2, flying at the edge of space, can scan shorelines, measure water levels, help fight forest fires, profile the atmosphere, assess flood damage, and sample the stratosphere.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/research/AirSci/ER-2/program.html

ER-2 Program Overview

NASA operates the ER-2s as readily deployable high altitude sensor platforms to collect remote sensing and in situ data on earth resources, atmospheric chemistry and dynamics, and oceanic processes. The aircraft also are used for electronic sensor research and development, satellite calibration and satellite data validation.





Sponsoring Organization

The ER-2s are part of a fleet of Science and Applications aircraft managed by NASA's Destination Earth. Other members of the fleet include a DC-8, C-130, T-39, and a Learjet.




Types of Missions and Campaigns Performed by the ER-2

Aerial Photography

High resolution aerial photography is collected during earth imagery acquisition missions. A variety of camera systems and film types are in current use. Photography acquired at high altitudes on the ER-2s on long duration missions can image large areas of the earth's surface in a single flight. Multispectral scanner data and photography acquired coincidentally on ER-2 missions provide unique data sets for earth science research.

Atmospheric Experiments

The ER-2 has played an important role in high altitude atmospheric research in recent years. The ER-2 has participated in several major aircraft campaigns to study the decrease in ozone over the Antarctic and Arctic regions. In August and September 1987 an ER-2 and the NASA Ames DC-8 were deployed to Punta Arenas, Chile to conduct overflights of the Antarctic. Results from this study provided data implicating man-made chemical compounds, specifically chloroflourocarbons, in the enormous ozone loss over the Antarctic region. Subsequent deployments have continued the study of the production and loss of ozone in the polar stratosphere. Atmospheric experiments were flown from Stavanger, Norway in January and February 1989 north of the Arctic Circle to investigate ozone loss in the stratosphere. In the period from October 1991 through October 1994 a series of ER-2 flights were flown out of Fairbanks, Alaska, Bangor, Maine and Christchurch, New Zealand to study the winter polar stratosphere. During these polar campaigns the ER-2 acquired atmospheric data with an array of up to eighteen sampling instruments on board the aircraft.

Recently a high level of flight activity has been directed towards determining the effects of a proposed fleet of stratospheric high speed transport aircraft. Background measurements of stratospheric chemistry have been compared to measurements of exhaust plumes of high altitude aircraft such as the Concorde and the ER-2.

Global Radiation Budget and Climate Change Research

Other atmospheric experiments were designed to promote the development of improved cloud and radiation parameters for use in climate models. These experiments coordinated satellite, airborne and surface observations to investigate the radiative properties and physical processes of clouds affecting global temperatures. The ER-2 is uniquely capable of providing data from the top of the atmosphere at fine spatial and temporal resolution.



Satellite Sensor Systems Development

Operating at 65,000 feet (19.8 km) the ER-2 acquires data above ninety-five percent of the earth's atmosphere. At this altitude the aircraft provides a stable platform for earth imagery acquisition, atmospheric research and electronic sensor development. The aircraft also yields an effective horizon of 300 miles (480 km) or greater at altitudes of 65,000 feet or higher. Consequently, ER-2 sensors acquiring earth imagery or conducting atmospheric sounding replicate spatial, spectral and atmospheric characteristics of data collected by earth observing sensors aboard orbiting satellites.

Since its inception the High Altitude Aircraft Program has assisted in the development of satellite sensors either through the operation of newly developed sensor prototypes or through simulation of proposed configurations with existing systems. In the early years of the program the U-2 flew prototypes of the Thematic Mapper (TM) and the Multispectral Scanner (MSS) now operating on Landsats 4 and 5. More recently the ER-2 has flown the Airborne Visible-Infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS), a 224 band hyper-spectral scanner designed by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena. The MODIS Airborne Simulator, built jointly by Daedalus Enterprises and NASA, is being used extensively to develop mapping algorithms that will be applied to future EOS orbital data well into the next century. The Daedalus scanners have been configured with spectrometers for simulating Thematic Mapper, Ocean Color Imager and Advanced Very High Resolution Radiometer (AVHRR) data.
Collecting data with prototype instruments provides scientists the opportunity to develop methodology and algorithms for application to data sets collected with future orbiting systems.

Disaster Assessment

The ER-2 frequently provides imagery for natural disaster assessments, including coverage of: the Mt. St. Helens eruption, Hurricane Iniki in Hawaii, the 1993 Mississippi floods, and the 1994 Northridge earthquake in southern California. The ER-2 supports the California Office of Emergency Services in developing new methods of delivering real-time imagery to fire fighters and other disaster relief agencies.

Contrary to what you might think, I'm not bringing this up to accuse NASA of any wrongdoing or implicate them in a government conspiracy. Both aircraft programs are a fantastic resource to the civilian scientific community (and the DoD, as you'll see below). I have no idea whether the government has already flown SRM flights or whether the idea being tossed around is purely based on theoretical models. However, if I represented a government or organization involved in SRM testing, the NASA WB-57 and ER-2 programs would certainly be ideal platforms from which to collect data for my experiment. Thus the main point of all this is simply that they exist. :themoreyouknow: ;)

Also an added bonus (not necessarily to clients wishing to keep their research covert though) is that since NASA is a 'civilian' agency, their aircraft are civilian aircraft, and thus trackable on flightaware:

WB-57 NASA926: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NASA926
(Flew laps over R4808 today, originating at Nellis. They've been flying every day for the last couple weeks and sometimes continuing down to Davis-Monthan AFB in Tuscon, AZ after the laps in R-4808)

WB-57 NASA928: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NASA928 (Flew from Texas to Bermuda a couple months ago)

ER-2 NASA806: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NASA806 (Flew laps over southern CA today at FL550, from KPMD)
ER-2 NASA809: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NASA809 (Flew last year, from R4808 to KEDW)
(I believe the first few photos explain why it hasn't flown since: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/multimedia/imagegallery/ER-2/index.html)

GULF3 NASA802: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NASA802 (Flew a pretty interesting profile over southern CA at FL390 last year, from KPMD)

Notice all the R4808 references? Here, let me google that for you.

Now that you've read that. I think it's pretty safe to say that they're engaging in this part of their Mission Statement:
...and test bed operations for future airborne or spaceborne systems.

Man the aerospace industry is so freakin cool... What was I saying again? :)

(Oh yeah... that studying "the radiative properties and physical processes of clouds affecting global temperatures" - a process vitally important to the popular volcanic eruption SRM model - is listed right on the NASA ER-2's website.)
 
Honestly, I'm not "really comfortable with it". But I'm comfortable enough for the issue to at least be talked about, I think that's my point. Population control is such a taboo topic, and with good cause for the reasons you mentioned. But I've always been a faithful believer in our federal court system and its ability to protect our civil liberties.

Yes. This whole topic is off off limits as you say. Chemtrails and eugenics. But here we are. Talking about it.

I had to backtrack with my kids yesterday and tell them their pilot Dad assumed the chemtrail story was just a complete urban legend, but now maybe its not. I also warned them not to talk too much about it yet or they'll be tagged as crazy.

I don't want to be apologizing to them again 20 years from now telling them I also assumed eugenics abuses would never return, but they did, because I didn't have the nerve to talk about it. I sympathize with Wacofans's concerns about eugenics. Ten years ago, if someone had predicted the TSA, boarding pat downs, NDAA, sneak-and-peak breakins, I'd have told them they were crazy. Never ever happen in America and I'm not even going to bother talking about it.

This eugenics issue has always bothered me. Thanks for explaining your reasoning.
 
Yes. This whole topic is off off limits as you say. Chemtrails and eugenics. But here we are. Talking about it.

I had to backtrack with my kids yesterday and tell them their pilot Dad assumed the chemtrail story was just a complete urban legend, but now maybe its not. I also warned them not to talk too much about it yet or they'll be tagged as crazy.

I don't want to be apologizing to them again 20 years from now telling them I also assumed eugenics abuses would never return, but they did, because I didn't have the nerve to talk about it. I sympathize with Wacofans's concerns about eugenics. Ten years ago, if someone had predicted the TSA, boarding pat downs, NDAA, sneak-and-peak breakins, I'd have told them they were crazy. Never ever happen in America and I'm not even going to bother talking about it.

This eugenics issue has always bothered me. Thanks for explaining your reasoning.

I had a similar experience last week. I've always been one to dismiss 9/11 conspiracies, but then I saw a video on WTC #7 where various architects talked about how it fell and how it had to be a controlled demo. At least opened my mind up a bit more.
 
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I had a similar experience last week. I've always been one to dismiss 9/11 conspiracies, but then I saw a video on WTC #7 where various architects talked about how it fell and how it had to be a controlled demo. At least opened my mind up a bit more.
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Although the story has received minimal media coverage, the 911 Commissioners themselves now share the public's doubts. . They intend to disclose more about their own doubts in the future.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101300.html?sub=new

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State Department Officials wrestle
the camera away from NBC cameraman.
(Seek to prevent Disclosure of Iraq War deception)
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The ChemTrail and 911 vaults are not the only treasure trove of still-to-be-released Government secrets. . Although our Government is openly flirting with Disclosure of their SRM (aka chemtrail) flight research, they're still keeping a tight lid on Iraq war planning disclosures tied to 911 .

One little known but dramatic example: Colin Powell's Chief of Staff, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, who helped prepare Powell's famous WMD address to the United Nations, has come out publicly to reveal that their Report was also weighted down with politically motivated half-truths and fabrications. . When NBC host Tim Russert attempted to ask Secretary Powell about the false WMD allegations he made against Iraq to the United Nations, a State Department Official named Emily Miller and Security Personnel physically wrestled the camera away from NBC trying to stop the interview. . Ms. Miller can barely be heard in the background ordering NBC to "edit" out the assault, while Tim Russert protests and tries to get the Government to return his camera. . Tim Russert refused Government instructions to edit the tape, and instead released the entire unedited tape to the general public. A short time later Russert was dead. You can't make this stuff up.

Russert: "Mr. Secretary....I don't think that's appropriate."

Emily Miller, State Dept.. press aide says: "They can't use it, they're editing it"

Russert comments (30 seconds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Dye_GkRPXuM#t=116s

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Colin Powell's Chief of Staff has now gone public to say that their WMD Report to the United Nations was largely a fabrication, engineered by VP Dick Cheney. . Wilkerson went so far as to suggest that, as part of this misdirection, he too may be guilty of a war crime. . His numerous public admissions, regrets and apologies have been ignored by most large American media outlets, but covered extensively outside this country. Small sample:

(Colonel Wilkerson)
"I have trouble sleeping at night thinking about my participation in it."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwdsm-Oux4o&feature=related .

"My greatest regret is that I did not resign."
"My estimation of Colin Powell and myself is not as high now."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFsf1sFj0es

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