Checkride Troubles

saria19

saria19

Well-Known Member
Recently I had a student go up for their checkride for Private, and during the course of checking the paperwork done for the IACRA, the checkpilot decided to cancel the flight before it had even started because he didn't want to accept simulator hours for simulated instrument! The FAR/AIM even acknowledges the use of FTD and Sim, yet this man declared that the hours were only good and valid if preformed in an aircraft!

Since this is the only check pilot we have in the area, I let him have his way just so he wouldn't get mad and refuse to work with us again.

Later, I called the offices and they agreed with me that my student was good to go and that this man should have conducted the ride.

Right now, I'm at a loss as to what I shoud do next. I've given my student the time in the aircraft, so he should be good for the ride, but my problem really is with this check pilot. To make matters worse, I already know he dislikes the school I work for.

Can anyone give me any suggestions as to how I should approach this subject?
 
That checkpilot being the only one in the area could be a problem. The reputation of the DPE closest to me isn't very good and his availability is worse, so I've found a DPE some distance away that will come to my airport and do the checkrides. She is about $50 higher, but willing to come to my airport instead of my students having to fly 30 miles to the other examiner (in a rented aircraft). Shop around for DPEs. You may find one you like that is willing to travel.
 
saria19 said:
he didn't want to accept simulator hours for simulated instrument! The FAR/AIM even acknowledges the use of FTD and Sim, yet this man declared that the hours were only good and valid if preformed in an aircraft!
Click to expand...

61.109(a)(3) says:

(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments
​
So your examiner was correct and this has been the historical interpretation by the FAA.
 
I tend to be more confrontational in these situations. I'd insist the examiner show/explain to me exactly why the simulator time doesn't count. This seems like a really clear cut case, in your favor, Saria. I don't understand what basis the examiner would have for not accepting it.

If that doesn't work, I'd be talking to the FSDO about it. If an examiner is not accepting perfectly legal time, the FSDO needs to know and do something about it. It's like if an examiner wasn't recognizing time in Piper aircraft towards the private pilot requirements or something...it just doesn't make sense. Examiners can't make up their own requirements.

And finally, I would try not to let any politics between the examiner and school get in the way of your interactions with this examiner. Don't give in just to prevent the examiner from getting upset and not wanting to work with your school again. If the examiner decides not to work with your school simply because you're not going to let him make up the rules, I'd say good riddance. That's not the kind of examiner I'm interested in working with anyway. No big loss.
 
tgrayson said:
61.109(a)(3) says:

(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments
​
So your examiner was correct and this has been the historical interpretation by the FAA.
Click to expand...

What about the 2.5 hours allowed by 61.109(k)(1)?

A person can't do all 3.0 hours of their private pilot instrument time in a sim, but I don't see any reason they can't do part in a sim.
 
If you look at the Matrix for IACRA for the 8710, you will see that there is also a area under FTD for instrument time. I am not sure that this is relevant, but I had a DPE on my CFI-I Ride make the comment that a frequent error that he sees is that dual for the FTD column and Instrument in the FTD need to be separated from the airplane time.

Some people just won't log it, but I see that as a not giving yourself credit for what you have done...just don't start not logging it then decide to log it later...
 
jrh said:
What about the 2.5 hours allowed by 61.109(k)(1)?
Click to expand...

It can't substitute for the 3 hours that are specifically required to be in an airplane. Here is one of the old FAQs on the subject:

QUESTION: A private pilot applicant has been given 2.5 hours training in control and maneuvering an aircraft with reference to instrument in an approved training device by an instructor. Is the actual flight time in the aircraft reduced from 40 hours to 37.5 hours?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.1(a)(3); Yes. § 61.109(a) says “Except as provided in paragraph (i) must log 40 hours of flight time...” However, the 3 hours required in control and maneuvering an airplane solely by reference to instruments must be accomplished in an airplane of appropriate class.
​
 
tgrayson said:
It can't substitute for the 3 hours that are specifically required to be in an airplane. Here is one of the old FAQs on the subject:

QUESTION: A private pilot applicant has been given 2.5 hours training in control and maneuvering an aircraft with reference to instrument in an approved training device by an instructor. Is the actual flight time in the aircraft reduced from 40 hours to 37.5 hours?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.1(a)(3); Yes. § 61.109(a) says “Except as provided in paragraph (i) must log 40 hours of flight time...” However, the 3 hours required in control and maneuvering an airplane solely by reference to instruments must be accomplished in an airplane of appropriate class.
​
Click to expand...

Wow, ok, good to know. I've never taught in a sim so I'm not up to speed on the nuances like this.

I think it's strange to allow private pilots to practice 2.5 hours of steep turns and stalls (very visual maneuvers) in a sim, yet they won't allow credit towards the instrument training in a sim. Weird. That's the feds for you, I guess.
 
jrh said:
I think it's strange to allow private pilots to practice 2.5 hours of steep turns and stalls (very visual maneuvers) in a sim, yet they won't allow credit towards the instrument training in a sim. Weird. That's the feds for you, I guess.
Click to expand...

Well, yes, I probably would have limited the FTD to such things as VOR training. I do think that not allowing the FTD for the simulated is reasonable, though, for a PPL. After all, they only get 3 hours of it, and the FTD is a poor substitute for a real airplane, just as flying under the hood is a poor substitute for actual IMC.
 
jrh said:
Wow, ok, good to know. I've never taught in a sim so I'm not up to speed on the nuances like this.

I think it's strange to allow private pilots to practice 2.5 hours of steep turns and stalls (very visual maneuvers) in a sim, yet they won't allow credit towards the instrument training in a sim. Weird. That's the feds for you, I guess.
Click to expand...


they will if it's part 61, but I completely agree that it is strange to allow 2.5 hours of visual maneuvers in a sim. Having flown in sims, I think they're great for instrument stuff and emergency procedures, but for visual maneuvers you completely cannot "feel" the airplane

unless you go to one of those super state of the art expensive sims
 
saria19 said:
Recently I had a student go up for their checkride for Private, and during the course of checking the paperwork done for the IACRA, the checkpilot decided to cancel the flight before it had even started because he didn't want to accept simulator hours for simulated instrument! The FAR/AIM even acknowledges the use of FTD and Sim, yet this man declared that the hours were only good and valid if preformed in an aircraft!

Since this is the only check pilot we have in the area, I let him have his way just so he wouldn't get mad and refuse to work with us again.

Later, I called the offices and they agreed with me that my student was good to go and that this man should have conducted the ride.

Right now, I'm at a loss as to what I shoud do next. I've given my student the time in the aircraft, so he should be good for the ride, but my problem really is with this check pilot. To make matters worse, I already know he dislikes the school I work for.

Can anyone give me any suggestions as to how I should approach this subject?
Click to expand...
I;m not being mean or trying to give offense, but it seems like you suffer from a rather unusual number of dramatic issues with your instructing.
 
saria19 said:
I've given my student the time in the aircraft, so he should be good for the ride, but my problem really is with this check pilot. To make matters worse, I already know he dislikes the school I work for.

Can anyone give me any suggestions as to how I should approach this subject?
Click to expand...

1. Find another DPE

2. Talk to someone at the FSDO - an Inspector or Supervisor- about the DPE. It's possible they already have complaints about him. You'll find that the FSDO really does want to move bad apples out of their DPE program.

3. Find another DPE
 
Mike H said:
2. Talk to someone at the FSDO - an Inspector or Supervisor- about the DPE. It's possible they already have complaints about him. You'll find that the FSDO really does want to move bad apples out of their DPE program.
Click to expand...

Happened in the San Jose area of California recently. A DPE there had his priviledges suspended after the FSDO received six letters of complaint.
 
saria19 said:
Can anyone give me any suggestions as to how I should approach this subject?
Click to expand...

Yes. Ask the FSDO if they would send an inspector to check your student. Just explain that he really is ready, but you have serious reservations that if you push the issue the examiner will take it out on your student. Be polite and professional in all of that, but don't be bashful about asking. You could also suggest that your student would be happy to serve as a lab rat if the FAA needed to do a surveillance on the examiner for his annual renewal. The worst they can say is no. Inspectors enjoy getting out of the office and you might just give somebody the excuse they need. One other plus, if you do get the inspector to do the check, it won't cost your student anything.
 
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