CFII question

planejay

planejay

Well-Known Member
On a recent CFII standardization flight I was queried regarding communication procedures. As we crossed the VOR that we were going to hold over, I called up approach and stated that we were entering the hold at 21 past the hour at 3000. The CFII I was flying with, not my check instructor, asked why: 1) I gave them the report 2) Why I gave them the report when I did (crossing the VOR) 3) When are we established in the hold? I told him: I realize that it is not required to give ATC the report but I feel its good practice and teach to do so 2) my understanding is that we report entering the hold 3) I am not sure. He said that if we give the report it is after we are established in the hold. I don't think that is correct and is why I am coming to you all to see if I am interpreting the book wrong. Furthermore, I can't find were it determines when one is established in the hold. Any help is appreciated...Thanks
 
Good question. I really cant find anything in the IFH, AIM, or FARs other than 91.183 IFR Radio Comm. But, how can you be "established" in a hold if you have no course guidance which you wouldnt receive unless it was a direct entry? So, I always call "established" once I have course guidance inbound. For example, once I turn to intercept the course inbound, I'd call "Citation 69L, established in the hold" once my needle came alive. Just as we'd call "procedure turn inbound" once we have course guidance.

If I am in a radar coverage, I do not call my time entering the hold or crossing the fix. If I am not in radar coverage, I believe its good operating practive in accordance with 91.183 to let ATC know what you're doing, why, and when.

This would be a great post for the ATC forum. :)
 
My take on your 3 questions is this:

1. Why give the report?

Well, from the AIM paragraph 5-3-7f:
Pilots should report to ATC the time and altitude/flight level at whichthe aircraft reaches the clearance limit and report leaving the clearance limit.
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However, from the FAA Instrument Flying Handbook 80803-15, page 10-8:
FAA 8083 said:
The following reports are not required if in radar contact with ATC:

4. The time and altitude or FL reaching a holding fix or point to whcih cleared.
Click to expand...

So I think that you are correct. The call is probably not required if you are radar contact, but probably required if you aren't radar contact. For habit patterns it's probably a good idea to always report established in holding.

2. Why did you report established in holding upon crossing the VOR?

This is really the same question as question #3, just asked in a slightly different way.

3. When are you "established" in holding?

Well, from the pilot-controller glossary out of AIM, you don't get much help:

Established: To be stable or fixed on a route, segment, altitude, heading, etc.

From AIM 5-3-7g. When holding at a VOR station, pilots should begin the turn to the outbound leg at the time of the first complete reversal of the to/from indicator.

I think this means that the holding fix (the VOR) is when you get the first positive from indication, and therefore this is when you are over the fix. Crossing the fix is where you enter the holding pattern, and in my book that makes it fit the definition of "established" above, because it is the first time that you are on a "segment" of the holding pattern.
 
fish314 said:
I think this means that the holding fix (the VOR) is when you get the first positive from indication, and therefore this is when you are over the fix. Crossing the fix is where you enter the holding pattern, and in my book that makes it fit the definition of "established" above, because it is the first time that you are on a "segment" of the holding pattern.
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I agree. A lot of times, CFI's make this stuff harder than it should be. When you cross the fix the first time you are in the hold. I also agree about the radar coverage comments. If things are really busy on the radio, I usually don't report entering the hold. ATC can see where you are, and you can usually tell that they are not exactly thrilled to hear that you are holding at your assigned altitude. The exception is if I am entering a hold because it is my clearance limit, and I have not received clearance to proceed. Sometimes you get this when cleared to an IAF and they forget about you. You can usually get cleared for the approach before you get there, but a few times ATC has been so busy, I couldn't get a word in edge wise.
 
I agree but I cant go along with the "established" part. I have to say you need to have course guidance b/f being established. Just as if on an approach and ATC says "maintain 3000 until established". This is established on a segment of the approach with course guidance.
 
meritflyer said:
I agree but I cant go along with the "established" part. I have to say you need to have course guidance b/f being established. Just as if on an approach and ATC says "maintain 3000 until established". This is established on a segment of the approach with course guidance.
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:yeahthat: I was taught to report being established in the hold. Established during my training was on the inbound leg of the hold because that's when you start your leg timing, after your established and pass the fix.
 
planejay said:
On a recent CFII standardization flight I was queried regarding communication procedures. As we crossed the VOR that we were going to hold over, I called up approach and stated that we were entering the hold at 21 past the hour at 3000. The CFII I was flying with, not my check instructor, asked why: 1) I gave them the report 2) Why I gave them the report when I did (crossing the VOR) 3) When are we established in the hold? I told him: I realize that it is not required to give ATC the report but I feel its good practice and teach to do so 2) my understanding is that we report entering the hold 3) I am not sure. He said that if we give the report it is after we are established in the hold. I don't think that is correct and is why I am coming to you all to see if I am interpreting the book wrong. Furthermore, I can't find were it determines when one is established in the hold. Any help is appreciated...Thanks
Click to expand...

1) Because the AIM says to.

2) Because the AIM says to do it when crossing the fix the first time (reaching a clearance limit)

3) The third question is interesting and a good one. Although not common, and it's not in the AIM or ATC Handbook from time to time ATC will ask an aircraft to report established in the hold. You are established in the hold when you are established on the inbound course after you have completed the entry.

Other than some questions I asked ATC types and a direct reference to the idea in the Canadian version of the AIM, there's a blurb in Order 7130.3 (Holding Patterns) that talks about the reduction of protected airspace "reduction areas" (for traffic separation not obstacles) based on traffic reporting established in the hold.


==============================
2-26. REDUCTION AREAS NOT RELATED TO ENTRY PROCEDURES. Reduction areas may be eliminated as follows:

a. When aircraft enter the holding area from directions other than described in paragraph 2-23, protection of the fix end reduction area may be discontinued after entry is completed and the holding aircraft is established in a racetrack pattern.

b. When aircraft enter the holding area from directions other than described in paragraph 2-24, protection of numbered area 4 may be discontinued after the holding aircraft initially becomes established on the inbound holding course, subsequent to entry.

c. The provisions of paragraph 2-26b also apply to numbered area 3 when numbered patterns 7 and 8 are used at or below 14,000'.

d. No reduction is authorized for obstacle clearance purposes.
==============================
 
Hey guys, Good question,
I think since the holding pattern consists of Holding fix,outbound leg, and inbound COURSE. You're established when you're established on the inbound course which also indicates that you're in the "holding side".
I agree with MERITFLYER on the established part.
It's always a good airmanship to report established in the hold, especially if the ATC is planning on giving you an EFC time.
 
I agree with "established" is having course guidence, my 'check instructor' stated that it was after crossing the fix twice, after I asked "based on what" he said it was in the books but couldn't show me once we got back on the ground. I believe that the IFH says that NOT in radar contact one should report "the time and altitude or FL reaching a holding fix or point to which cleared." I reported crossing the VOR to begin the entry, I was not established yet. That is how I interpreted the book. Is this correct or does one need to wait until crossing the fix after being established? Thanks again for all the help.
 
Having course guidance would be for instance, after a teardrop entry you turn to the appropriate heading after you cross the fix then fly outbound for 1 min. Once you turn back in the direction of the hold to intercept the inbound course radial and your needle comes alive, you report course guidance.
 
planejay said:
I agree with "established" is having course guidance, my 'check instructor' stated that it was after crossing the fix twice, after I asked "based on what" he said it was in the books but couldn't show me once we got back on the ground. I believe that the IFH says that NOT in radar contact one should report "the time and altitude or FL reaching a holding fix or point to which cleared." I reported crossing the VOR to begin the entry, I was not established yet. That is how I interpreted the book. Is this correct
Click to expand...

It is correct. AIM 4-4-3.e.6 says

==============================
Pilots should report to ATC the time and altitude/flight level at which the aircraft reaches the clearance limit
==============================

not

==============================
Pilots should report to ATC the time and altitude/flight level at which the aircraft reaches the clearance limit the second time
==============================

or the 3rd time or the 4th time or...
 
The big difference I see between a hold in most light planes and an approach is that once you are established on a portion of the approach, you normally have continuous course guidance until the MAP (except for the procedure turn if required). In a hold it is a bit different, as you don't really have course guidance at all for over half the hold. So the question is, why place such significance on course guidance when telling ATC you are established? Maybe you should call them everytime you cross the holding fix and tell them that you are no longer established, then let them know that you are once inbound again?

If you are using an FMS, it does not really matter anyway, since you have positive course guidance no matter what leg you are on. It just draws the race track and then flies it.
 
The reason I say due to course guidance inbound it for situational awareness. I have had students enter holds wrond and not be able to figure out whats going on (in practice). Therefore, I am going to make sure I entered the hold right and have course guidance inbound before I call ATC.

Whoo hoo!
 
Technically, 'established' is a half scale deflection according to ICAO standards. If you are told to hold north on the 360 radial, you are not established until in that radial is set and the needle is alive (inside two and a half dots). If the controller asks you to report established, then you would use this rule.

Per the AIM, you are not required to report established in the hold, just the time when the clearance limit was reached (along with the rest of the report)..."N123, ABC VOR, 22 after, level 8,000". You are not required to say "established in the hold", nor is it expected of you.

And yes, you are required to make the position report when reaching the clearance limit when in radar contact.
 
FLpilot said:
Per the AIM, you are not required to report established in the hold, just the time when the clearance limit was reached (along with the rest of the report)..."N123, ABC VOR, 22 after, level 8,000". You are not required to say "established in the hold", nor is it expected of you.
Click to expand...
...unless ATC asks you to.
 
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