CFII limitations

minds_warped

minds_warped

New Member
If a CFI applicant completes his CFII intial in a multi - engine, can that CFI teach instrument a single? Meaning the CFI only does not have his MEI or single eng add on? I think the only thing he can do is teach instruments in a twin. However, he is not an MEI. Thanks for the input.
 
CFII, like instrumet, is a rating that applies to your certificate. If your CFII is done in a multi, it still applies to single and multi operations.
 
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But you can't instruct in a twin period. without an MEI

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Wrong. I am not saying it is smart, but you can provide INSTRUMENT instruction in any class or type(if required) of airplane on your PILOT certificate with an instrument airplane rating on your FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR certificate. The Airplane Multiengine rating on the flight instructor certificate allows you to give training on multiengine operations on any class of multiengine airplane you have on your pilot certificate.
 
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Wrong. I am not saying it is smart, but you can provide INSTRUMENT instruction in any class or type(if required) of airplane on your PILOT certificate with an instrument airplane rating on your FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR certificate. The Airplane Multiengine rating on the flight instructor certificate allows you to give training on multiengine operations on any class of multiengine airplane you have on your pilot certificate.

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Do you have an FAR reference for that? I've always been confused by this point, and I recently turned down an opportunity to give an IPC in a multi because I didn't think it was legal. I've been thumbing through FAR 61, and couldn't find anything relevant.
 
61.195(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her5 flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

Hence, instrument training can be provided in a multi if you have CFII but not MEI.
 
Sorry, but I have to disagree:

61.195(b). A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the appropriate category and class rating

So no, you can't conduct any training in a multi-engine airplane if you do not have an MEI. Hope that clarifies things.
 
I found this on faa.gov


QUESTION: Regarding § 61.195(c). The confusion arises about the “instrument rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft”. What is the intent or meaning here, instrument is not class specific. Seems like it would be enough to say “...must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.”

Perhaps an example would help illustrate the issue. Could an instrument rated instructor (CFII) give instrument instruction in a multiengine airplane if the instructor did not have a multiengine instructor rating or a multiengine rating on their commercial pilot certificate? The traditional answer to this question has been yes...but, make sure you don't get into the realm of multiengine instruction by pulling an engine or doing something else that would require multiengine skills. Has this changed with § 61.195(c)?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(c), In reference to your specific question, the answer is no. A person that does not hold an airplane multiengine rating on his pilot and flight instructor certificate shall not give instrument training in a multiengine airplane.
 
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So no, you can't conduct any training in a multi-engine airplane if you do not have an MEI. Hope that clarifies things.

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It is possible to get your CFII as your initial flight instructor rating. It this were true, then it would be possible to be a CFII and not be legal to give instrument instruction in a single or multi, since you only have the CFII. This would make no sense.

If you only have the CFII your certificate will say:

Flight Instructor
Instrument Airplane

Note that it does not specify what type of airplane. In this case the only rating you could endorse a student for is the instrument rating, although you could provide the instrument training necessary for the commerical certificate as well as give an IPC as long as you have a commercial pilot's certificate for what ever airplane you are instructing in.
 
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It is possible to get your CFII as your initial flight instructor rating. It this were true, then it would be possible to be a CFII and not be legal to give instrument instruction in a single or multi, since you only have the CFII. This would make no sense.


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Yes it is possible and it has been done. Just check here with JC's own, former Marine and current CFII/MEI, MTSU_av8er.
 
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It is possible to get your CFII as your initial flight instructor rating. It this were true, then it would be possible to be a CFII and not be legal to give instrument instruction in a single or multi, since you only have the CFII. This would make no sense.

If you only have the CFII your certificate will say:

Flight Instructor
Instrument Airplane

Note that it does not specify what type of airplane. In this case the only rating you could endorse a student for is the instrument rating, although you could provide the instrument training necessary for the commerical certificate as well as give an IPC as long as you have a commercial pilot's certificate for what ever airplane you are instructing in.

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This is what 61.195(c) is for

Look at this

QUESTION: Can a Flight Instructor with only an Instrument-Airplane rating on his CFI certificate (but no Airplane Single-Engine rating on his CFI certificate), and Airplane Single-engine Land, Instrument Airplane ratings on his pilot certificate give the flight training required by § 61.65(c) for an instrument rating added to a Private Pilot Certificate-Airplane Single-engine Land?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(c); The answer is yes as addressed in § 61.195(c).

So in the example in your question, the flight instructor holds instrument privileges for the Airplane Single-engine Land rating on his pilot certificate and also instrument instructing privileges for the single-engine airplane on his Flight Instructor Certificate. Yes, that is what § 61.195(c) means!

In the past, I have heard of an unwritten rumor going around that supposedly said a flight instructor who only held a Flight Instructor Certificate-Instrument Airplane and Commercial Pilot Certificate with an airplane-single-engine land rating and instrument-airplane rating could provide instrument training to an applicant in a multiengine airplane. That practice is not permitted any longer, if it was ever permitted in the first place!

As an example, a flight instructor, who only holds a CFII-A rating is giving instrument training to an Instrument-Airplane applicant in a single-engine land airplane. That flight instructor must hold the following:

Flight Instructor Certificate Commercial Pilot Certificate or ATP
Instrument-Airplane Airplane Single-Engine Land
Instrument-Airplane

Another example. A flight instructor, who only holds a CFII-A rating is giving instrument training to an Instrument-Airplane applicant in an multiengine land airplane. That flight instructor must hold the following:

Flight Instructor Certificate Commercial Pilot Certificate or ATP
Instrument-Airplane Airplane Multiengine Land
Instrument-Airplane

However this example is a “no-no” and a violation of § 61.195(c). A flight instructor, who only holds the following and wishes to give instrument training to an Instrument-Airplane applicant in an multiengine land airplane shall not do so.

Flight Instructor Certificate Commercial Pilot Certificate or ATP
Instrument-Airplane Airplane Single-engine Land
Instrument-Airplane

As per § 61.195(c), which states in pertinent part: “. . . must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.”
 
Still a bit lost here... in my situation, a CFII-A (no MEI), with a multiengine rating on his commercial pilot certificate wants to give an IPC in a multiengine aircraft. It seems as though §61.195(b) would prevent that from being legal. However, it seems it would also prevent a CFII (no MEI or single engine instructor rating) from performing an IPC in any aircraft since 61.195(c) only applies to "training for the issuance of an instrument rating."

Any thoughts or clarifications? Or am I misreading something?
 
This question is one of the biggest messes in all the FAR.

If you read the regulations, it's pretty clear that you cannot teach in any aircraft without a CFI rating for that aircraft. (Theoretically, all a CFII with no CFI aircraft rating can do is teach in a sim or FTD).

But, if you read the Part 61 FAQ it has, for years, said that you could.

In January 2004, the Eastern Regional FAA Legal Counsel put it to rest (yeah, right) with an opinion that the regulation means exactly what it says - a CFI cannot teach, not instruments or anything else, without the appropriate aircraft rating.

Then, in mid 2004, the FAA threatened certificate action against a CFII for teaching our of class. The inspector was pointed to the FAQ and dropped the charge.

So what we have right now are regulations that say you can't, a regional FAA legal counsel opinion that says you can't, and a semi-official theoretically non-binding FAA "policy statement" (the FAQ) that says you can.

Hopefully, the FAA will clear this one up sometime before the next test case. The CFI in the next one might not be as lucky.
 
To sum everything up:

If you want to give instrument instruction in a single engine aircraft you need to have a CFI-Single and CFII. If you want to give instrument instruction in a multi then you need to have a MEI and CFII.
 
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Still a bit lost here... in my situation, a CFII-A (no MEI), with a multiengine rating on his commercial pilot certificate wants to give an IPC in a multiengine aircraft.
Any thoughts or clarifications? Or am I misreading something?

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Looks like we (all) need more clarification. Unless I missed something in the previous posts/references, they all point to "intrument instruction." In your case, we are not talking about instruction, because the ME rated pilot the CFI would be flying with is already "appropriately rated."

The FAR references above all refer to Sec. 61.195(c) "A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating.... In the case of an IPC given in a ME airplane, the instruction is not being given for the issuance of a rating.
 
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If you read the regulations, it's pretty clear that you cannot teach in any aircraft without a CFI rating for that aircraft. (Theoretically, all a CFII with no CFI aircraft rating can do is teach in a sim or FTD).


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So, it sounds like having just the CFII instructor rating is just as useful as having your IGI...
 
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If you read the regulations, it's pretty clear that you cannot teach in any aircraft without a CFI rating for that aircraft. (Theoretically, all a CFII with no CFI aircraft rating can do is teach in a sim or FTD).


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So, it sounds like having just the CFII instructor rating is just as useful as having your IGI...

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Did anyone read the fact I posted from the faa website? It says you can instruct in a SE airplane with only your CFII.
 
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So, it sounds like having just the CFII instructor rating is just as useful as having your IGI...

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Yeah Darren, complete waste of 3.5 flight hours, huh?
grin.gif


I think if you intend on getting your CFI and CFII quick together, it would probably be advisable to take the CFII as your initial, just so you can get those FOI things out of the way first (and I think flying instruments from the right seat is a bit easier than the commercial maneuvers) and then take your CFI as an additional rating...

But that's just me
 
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Did anyone read the fact I posted from the faa website? It says you can instruct in a SE airplane with only your CFII.

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Yeah, that was just my interpretation of the FARs, it seems the Part 61 FAQ (and common practice) has a different opinion. Athough I don't see how §61.195(b) could be any clearer...
 
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