CFI Spin Endorsement: 2 year CFI required?

pscraig

pscraig

Well-Known Member
For the initial CFI, a candidate must be signed off as proficient in spin recovery per 14CFR 61.183(i)(1). Does this endorsement have to be given by a 2-year CFI? I can't find any specific reference in the FARs that specifically states the spin training must be given by a 2-year CFI.
 
Since the flight training for spins is specifically intended for CFI applicants, this suggests to me that a two year CFI is required. Unless of course the CFI is a 400 hour CFI operating under 141.

Anyone else?

What about if an applicant holds a II but no airplane CFI? Can an "under two" CFI give the training then?

Lostcomm
 
For the 'training' no. For the signoff, yes. Of course, the signoff can't be made without the training, so save some $$ and go with someone who can do the signoff too.

Or go up with someone who has some spin experience (CFI or not) and get comfortable with the entry and recovery procedures. Then go up with the 2 year CFI and teach what you know. Should go pretty quick that way.
 
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For the initial CFI, a candidate must be signed off as proficient in spin recovery per 14CFR 61.183(i)(1). Does this endorsement have to be given by a 2-year CFI? I can't find any specific reference in the FARs that specifically states the spin training must be given by a 2-year CFI.

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You trying to take over Frank's job now? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

How is Las Vegas btw?
 
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For the 'training' no. For the signoff, yes. Of course, the signoff can't be made without the training, so save some $$ and go with someone who can do the signoff too.


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Do you have a definitive reference? I've seen 61.195(h)(2)(iii) but that isn't specific to the spin endorsement. 61.183(i)(1) specifies only that the endorsement must be given by an "authorized instructor" which is defined in 61.1 as a flight instructor who is providing flight or ground instruction in accordance with the priveleges of his/her flight instructor certificate, meaning category/class.

I'm a CFI already and have taken a spin/upset recovery course at FlightSafety Since we are so busy, I would like to do some of the spin training where I work. Our 2-year CFI is convinced he is the only one who can do it, but I have yet to find a reference to support that position. We had a student who arrived for training who already had spin training, with the 61.183 endorsement in their logbook. No effort was made by the examiner or anyone else to determine if the instructor who made the endorsement was a 2-year CFI or not, and that began my inquiry. No one seems to have a definite reference, they just seem to have an opinion.

Lucas-
Just trying to help out. We are busier than ever here! The cooler weather helps, but it's still hectic. Go Team Fila!
 
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61.183(i)(1) specifies only that the endorsement must be given by an "authorized instructor"

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That reference is your answer, right there. By an authorized instructor. That wording is all over 14 CFR Part 61 for a reason. Because authorized changes on a per case basis. You can not give instrument training (towards the rating) without CFII, because of not being authorized. You can certainly train someone by reference to instruments, but the 15hrs required have to be done by a II.

So, like I said, the training can be done by anyone. The endorsement though is another issue. Endorsements for CFI ratings have that 2 year requirement for the CFI doing the training. You, or any other instructor, can actually give all the CFI training you want. Good way to do it in fact, better for wherever you are working. Then, someone with the over 2yr thing, does a final check of all the training, and a signoff, because that person is authorized.

Are you trying to tell the guys you work with you are authorized to give CFI endorsements?

DPE likely doesn't look at all the other stuff in the logbook as well, but they are responsible to make sure it is all correct, as they are on the line for signing for someone that had invalid training. I'd think for CFI they may assume a bit more that things are done correctly, but that isn't always the case.
 
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For the initial CFI, a candidate must be signed off as proficient in spin recovery per 14CFR 61.183(i)(1). Does this endorsement have to be given by a 2-year CFI? I can't find any specific reference in the FARs that specifically states the spin training must be given by a 2-year CFI.

[/ QUOTE ]Look at the requirement again. It's not a "spin proficiency" endorsement. It's not an endorsement that says a pilot knows how to spin and recover safely. It's an endorsement that the pilot "possesses instructional proficiency" in spins. Not that you can do it, but that you can =teach= it.

Of course the "senior CFI" requirement for first time applicants applies. Why wouldn't it? 61.195(h)(2) says pretty plainly that "a flight instructor who provides training to an initial applicant for a flight instructor certificate must..." meet certain requirements. There are only two conditions for it's application:

1. It's training for a CFI requirement.
2. The person being trainign is applying for a CFI certificate for the first time.

Which of those two do you think doesn't apply in this situation?
 
What if you do spin recovery training BEFORE working on your initial CFI? Does that count or do you have to do it again if it wasn't a 2-year CFI? Asking since I did spin recovery last month, and I'm not sure if the CFI was a 2-year or not. Looking into starting my CFI sometime before the end of the year.
 
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What if you do spin recovery training BEFORE working on your initial CFI? Does that count or do you have to do it again if it wasn't a 2-year CFI? Asking since I did spin recovery last month, and I'm not sure if the CFI was a 2-year or not. Looking into starting my CFI sometime before the end of the year.

[/ QUOTE ]Depends. What does the endorsement say?

Was it an endorsement that said that you were competent to teach spins? If not, it doesn't matter if you took a three month course combining s unusual attitude recovery and aerobatics and can do a 1/2 reverse Cuban followed by a loop into an immelman that terminates is a spin that you recover from after 13 turns. If the endorsement doesn't say that you are "competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures" then it's simply not the endorsement that's required for the CFI and doesn't count for that purpose.

If it does say that, it should have been given by a 24+ month CFI.
 
Well, looks like I get to do spins again. Oh, twist my arm....... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Yup, the key is, with all the CFI training, you are being taught to teach. While I may be able to relate a bit of stuff after a number of months at this, I can see where having a couple of years, and some time, helps give more pointers to the new CFI in training.

Like I said, anyone can do the training. It is the endorsment that matters though.

And again, read the part 61 reference carefully. It says that an examiner _MAY_ allow the endorsement to take place of the spins. I know the DPE on my field, who is allowed to do the initial CFI checkrides, said he picks every 3rd or 4th, I forget which, and tells them to bring a spinnable aircraft to the checkride.

My spin endorsment was a couple of days of dual. 1.5hrs each or so. First day, it was another intro into spins (had done a few a month or so before that). Then repeat to get comfortable. Along with a number of situations that students may bring up to put a plane into a spin. Another day of the same, with a refinement of recoveries, and talking through all phases of the spin as it happened. Was done very well. Other than a couple examples at first, I did all the flying (we did have chutes on, so on the way back, instructor did a couple of rolls on the way down back to the airport, as I was dialing in the ATIS. Went out for a day after that by myself, to make sure I was comfortable with the procedure and talking through all phases. Only thing more I want to do, other than more spins /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif would be to sit in the back seat and do them from there. But I'm not teaching in tailwheel at this time, so that'll come.

Kinda fun letting a student get into a 1/2 turn or so if their stall is a little sloppy, and talk them through the fix. Especially fun in a PA38 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif The few times it has happened, I have always had a comment on the ground from the students at how calm I was. I think getting a good few hours of spin practice in, feeling like a crazy person talking to myself outloud, really did help.
 
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Like I said, anyone can do the training. It is the endorsement that matters though.

[/ QUOTE ]As I technical matter, I disagree with this. [ QUOTE ]
And again, read the part 61 reference carefully.

[/ QUOTE ]61.195(h)doesn't even use the word endorsement endorsements, but clearly tells us the that =training= for the first time CFI applicant must be given by a senior CFI.

Of course, flight schools will usually tag team CFI training with a junior CFI. I don't see a problem with that, but, as I read the regulation, there needs to be at least one logbook entry to cover each and every task (including all of those listed in 61.185 and 61.187) that shows training by a senior CFI, even if it's just contained in stage checks that covers all of the bases.
 
Right, like you said. That is what is typically done. As long as the person signing off the training (the endorsements and that means to endorse, that person certifies training done, so I would assume they at least did a check) has covered all topics, it doesn't matter if you do other additional stuff. It is basically practice, and since it is dual given, must be logged as such. On its own though, it is invalid as CFI training. With the 2 year CFI signing off the same, it can be seen as additional training.

Actually, makes me think though. Since only training given towards a rating has to be logged, and the under 2 year CFI can't give that training towards the rating, does it even have to be logged? Guess not, but it would make sense to show it. No reason not to. It is not the stuff needed, but an in addition to kinda thing for more experience.

This works for all the CFI training, and the spin issue here, is training to instructional levels. So it as well, can be done by someone else, but the senior CFI must sign off training and endorsement for it. Nothing says you actually have to go do some spins to get an endorsement. But kinda hard to show you had training in that area without it logged.

You don't have to 'train' with a CFI. Nothing wrong with sitting in the right seat, and practicing things with a friend on the left. Not really something to log as dual, but still training in a sense it is practice. Then put a CFI in that other seat, and they can offer training. Call it landing practice or whatever, just not the .180's training, and it is all good /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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This works for all the CFI training, and the spin issue here, is training to instructional levels. So it as well, can be done by someone else, but the senior CFI must sign off training and endorsement for it.

[/ QUOTE ]It can be done by someone else, so long as a senior CFI does it also. I'm probably being hypertechnical, but I want to make sure that we're on the same page. I've seen too many discussions that suggest, incorrectly, that =all= of the training can be done by junior CFIs' so long as a senior CFI does some kind of a final sign-off. Usually it's because we base our opinion on what we think the regulation says rather than on what it actually does say.

For the first time applicant, in order to =count= toward CFI requirements, CFI-specific =training= must be =given= by a senior CFI. In the context of first time applicants "authorized instructor" means "24-month CFI". As you said, you can have all sorts of training by junior CFIs. And they can all go into the "dual received" column, but none of them "count" toward CFI requirements. In order to meet the requirements for the certificate, the has to be at least one entry that counts.

That means that if the Examiner during a CFI ride says, "Show me the entry in your logbook that shows that you received instructional training in takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds [61.187(b)(1)(vii)]" the Applicant better be able to point to a logbook entry that covers these tasks that was signed by a senior CFI.

So, for example, in the case of the CFI spin training, here's what the reg says:
==============================
Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas ==============================

You can have 46 logbook spin entries by a junior CFI, but there must be at least 2 that are signed by a senior CFI:

1. A logbook line item for dual flight training that includes spins, etch to show the required training.
2. A one-time endorsement of instructional competence.
 
Yeah, what you put in bold is a given midlife. You can't sign of training you didn't give. If you wanna get hypertechnical, my typing can be read to have said that as well, by the nature of:

" senior CFI must sign off training and endorsement for it"

And, since you can't sign training you didn't give, the correct is a given.
 
I figured you had it right, Josh. But I have seen a lot of posts that suggest that all the senior needs to do is give the final "ready for the ride endorsement" and sign the 8710 and that a junior can do all the training. Just wanted to clear that part up.
 
Yup, was just trying to restate what you did, kinda. Since this spin endorsement is signed to say you are proficient at a training level, then that is part of the CFI training, and that has to be endorsed by a senior CFI. Thing is, the FAR wording is not really the best. Doesn't say you have to actually do a spin and recovery with anyone, so I guess the senior CFI could just sign it off with a couple second question and answer on ground, and in flight. Since there is no standard for a spin, you could go up with that senior CFI, show how to avoid getting further into a spin, and that could be enough it seems. Crazy in my book, but guess some places may do it that way. After a couple of years, I never will. Or if that is what someone gets from a 2 year person now, I'd take them up for a better understanding (and sign for what we did, that of course just couldn't be used as credit towards their CFI initial /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

So back to the original question. Can you do training, sure. Can you do it to meet the rating requirements, including the endorsment itself, no. Is that what I said in my first post kinda? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
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