CFI practical not counting as a BFR

Goldmember

Goldmember

Well-Known Member
Got this on the company email today and had to laugh. We just had a poll on here and determined the CFI was the hardest rating for everybody yet from this letter it appears if you don't have your examiner specifically write in your logbook a successful BFR IN ADDITION to passing the test, passing the practical doesn't automatically give you two years. I don't know about you guys but what a crock, I flew my butt off on that checkride. Have a look:

This responds to your e-mail to our Regional Counsel, Ms. Loretta Alkalay, dated October
7, 2007, forwarded to Ms. Rebecca MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations,
on October 09, 2007 . You request an interpretation of section .14 CFR
61.56(d), as it pertains to requirements for a flight review.
You specifically inquire whether successful completion of a flight instructor practical test
within the preceding 24 calendar months relieves a pilot of the requirement to complete a 14
CFR 61.56(a): Flight Review. Your letter references the pertinent section of Part 61
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ), which states that a flight instructor practical test would
meet the requirements of § 61.56 flight review and requires that the examiner should record
a satisfactory completion of such a review in the logbook. Even though you note that Part 61
FAQ no longer officially reflects the policy of a Flight Standards Service, the legal question
of whether a flight instructor practical test might satisfy the requirements of §61:56 flight
review remains.
Set forth below is the pertinent part of the regulation.
§ 61.56: Flight Review
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (f) of this section, a flight review
consists of a minimum of 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour of ground training.
The review must include:
(1) A review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 of this
chapter; and
(2) A review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person
giving the review, is necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of
the privileges of the pilot certificate.
/ .../
(d) A person who has, within a period specified in paragraph (c) of this section,
passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check
airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege
need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.
The answer is that a successful completion of a flight instructor practical test within the
preceding 24 calendar months does not automatically relieve a pilot of the requirement to
complete §61.56 flight review. A flight instructor practical test is not a pilot proficiency

check for a pilot certificate, rating or an operating privilege, or any other acceptable
substitute for a flight review specifically listed in § 61.56( d). A flight instructor practical test
is not primarily focused on piloting skills but rather on one's instructional skills. Thus,
prima facie, it does not constitute a pilot proficiency check adequate to substitute for a flight
review, as specified under § 61.56(d).
However, 14 CFR 61.56(a)(2) states that the person giving a flight review has the discretion
to determine the maneuvers and procedures necessary for the pilot to demonstrate "safe
exercise of the privileges ofthe pilot certificate." When the individual taking a flight
instructor practical test requests that the test be taken in conjunction with a biennial flight
review, the activities related to the flight instructor practical test may be evaluated by the
examiner for demonstrating the maneuvers and procedures necessary to accomplish a flight
review. There may be circumstances when the examiner determines that passing a flight
instructor practical test also satisfies the requirements for a §61.56 flight review. At least, it
is likely that the flight instruction practical test will reduce the scope of maneuvers and
procedures needed to complete the. §61.56 flight review taken in conjunction with the
practical test. The examiner must record the successful completion of the flight review in the
pilot's logbook to attest that the pilot has met the requirements of §61.56.
This response was prepared by Adrianne Wojcik, an Attorney in the Regulations Division of
the Office of the Chief Counsel, and has been coordinated with the General Aviation
Division of Flight Standards Service. If you have additional questions regarding this matter,
please contact us at your convenience at (202) 267-7776 ..
Sincerely,
~
 
Well, the CFI isn't a pilots license.

I'm going up for mine soon, and I'm going to ask the examiner to sign me off for a BFR as well.
 
Interesting.

And train, thanks for that information. Nice to know I just need to do the flight portion here in another month.
 
Goldmember said:
Got this on the company email today and had to laugh. We just had a poll on here and determined the CFI was the hardest rating for everybody yet from this letter it appears if you don't have your examiner specifically write in your logbook a successful BFR IN ADDITION to passing the test, passing the practical doesn't automatically give you two years. I don't know about you guys but what a crock, I flew my butt off on that checkride. Have a look:
Click to expand...

It has always been that way. As pointed out in the second post, a instructor certificate is not a pilot certificate, so a CFI ride would not nor should not affect your pilot's certificate.

Even when you take an FAA ride for a pilot certificate it doesn't REALLY count as a FR. However, a flight review is required every two years from the date of certificate issuance, and when you get a new certificate (new cert or add on) you have a new date of issuance, and a reset clock.

I have never know an examiner that wouldn't sign you off for a FR after a CFI check though. Usually all you have to do is ask.
 
X-Forces said:
I have never know an examiner that wouldn't sign you off for a FR after a CFI check though. Usually all you have to do is ask.
Click to expand...
I have, and it is because of liability. The ones who do it are nice guys, but the FR requirement is 1 hour dual, and these examiners that I know won't do it because that FSDO policy is that no Inspector gives dual except to close friends and family - not the general public, because of the obvious conflict of interest.

So, to avoid any conflict with an examiner, the right and proper way is to have the recommending CFI sign off a FR before checkride.

If this were common knowledge, that would be the routine. But most of us are going through life assuming the CFI ride counts.
 
Well the issue wasn't with a whether they "Would" do it, it was the fact I never knew I was supposed to ask. I thought the letter was funny because it specifically says in there how it's not really a "proficiency" check and the pilot isn't assessed on his/her skills per se, more based on teaching..last I checked if you can't fly to Commercial PTS on the CFI ride you're busted, that has proficiency written all over it to me.
 
nosehair said:
I have, and it is because of liability. The ones who do it are nice guys, but the FR requirement is 1 hour dual, and these examiners that I know won't do it because that FSDO policy is that no Inspector gives dual except to close friends and family - not the general public, because of the obvious conflict of interest.

So, to avoid any conflict with an examiner, the right and proper way is to have the recommending CFI sign off a FR before checkride.

If this were common knowledge, that would be the routine. But most of us are going through life assuming the CFI ride counts.
Click to expand...

These are excellent points. Of course, the checkride is not dual received, and is not logged as such. I don't know that the DPEs who have given my former students flight reviews as part of their CFI rides logged it that way or not; never thought to look - but I doubt they did.

Also, it does seem to be a natural for an instructor to sign off the Flight Review before the checkride...you've given the dual and are confident enough to recommend the candidate for a new certificate, why not give the flight review endorsement. Most, if not all, of my students had received pilot certificates in rapid order, so it wasn't critical, but I wish I had thought of doing that at the time.
 
BTW, I think it's BS that a Flight Instructor cert. doesn't count. If you totally botch the flying portion of the ride, your not going to pass.

3. the ability to demonstrate and simultaneously explain the key
elements of a TASK. The TASK demonstration must be to the​
COMMERCIAL PILOT skill level2; and
Click to expand...
 
I think the issue is none of us think to give a BFR. Most CFI candidates don't need one. I did my CFI 3 weeks after my commercial ticket ride, so why would I need one? It only interests me now because had I not done my mult-comm add on this year, I would have needed one, but was counting from the time of my CFI check, not my comm check so I would have been off by three weeks. But the email just made taught me something I didn't know. I ASSUMED the CFI ride counted. It obviously doesnt. But I'm not buying the whole "dual received" part. You don't get dual on a private or comm ride and they count.
 
nosehair said:
I have, and it is because of liability. The ones who do it are nice guys, but the FR requirement is 1 hour dual, and these examiners that I know won't do it because that FSDO policy is that no Inspector gives dual except to close friends and family - not the general public, because of the obvious conflict of interest.

So, to avoid any conflict with an examiner, the right and proper way is to have the recommending CFI sign off a FR before checkride.

If this were common knowledge, that would be the routine. But most of us are going through life assuming the CFI ride counts.
Click to expand...

That makes sense, from the examiner's prospective. Actually, come to think of it, it was more the DEs that would sign off a FR, and not really examiners. I was erroneously using the two terms interchangeably.
 
nosehair said:
I have, and it is because of liability. The ones who do it are nice guys, but the FR requirement is 1 hour dual, and these examiners that I know won't do it because that FSDO policy is that no Inspector gives dual except to close friends and family - not the general public, because of the obvious conflict of interest.

So, to avoid any conflict with an examiner, the right and proper way is to have the recommending CFI sign off a FR before checkride.

If this were common knowledge, that would be the routine. But most of us are going through life assuming the CFI ride counts.
Click to expand...

Nosehair I'm confused. A DPE cannot instruct? Or did you mean FAA Inspector? I heard an Inspector say that he had to travel out of the area to give instruction, so that I understand. But a DPE? I know a DPE who is also an active instructor.

Also, what about passing a checkride, like a private or commercial. Does that not reset the clock and count as a BFR? What about adding a multi rating? I thought it was passing a checkride for any cert or rating. A multi add on checkride is not logged as dual received, yet the add-on counts as a BFR! And it is adding a rating to an existing Certificate.

Aside from the legal splitting, passing a CFI ride is going to be way harder than most BFRs. Cant see the problem with letting this be a BFR.
 
I actually just sent a letter off to the FAA asking for a reason why a CFI ride must be performed to a commercial level, and it does not reset the flight review date. It will probably get me no where, but hey, I'm bored.
 
It seems that if an examiner or inspector were asked to endorse a flight review in the course of a CFI practical test that the logical question would be why the applicant's instructor didn't want to make the flight review endorsement.
 
Louie1975 said:
Cant see the problem with letting this be a BFR.
Click to expand...
it's because it's well within the PTS for a person to pass the CFI checkride without touching the controls once. During a cfi checkride, the examiner is primarily testing your instructional skills. Its an (allbeit rare) loophole where one can get a BFR without actually doing most of the stuff required for a BFR. IMO it's one of the few loopholes the FAA has had the foresight to actually address...

Just because most CFI checkrides have you do a lot of BFR stuff does not matter.
 
If a CFI practical does not count for a flight review why then does the FAA refer to a flight instructor "rating" numerous times in 61.183?

If it's not a rating then why call it one?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top