CFI passrate

[skatergeek]

ok heres the deal, about a month and a half ago i got this student who has been working on his instrument rating for an extremely long time (2 years). He has already gone for his inst checkride, twice, and failed. I started flying with him, and signed him off for his third try (first time that i signed him off) and he passed. Can i count that as a pass for my passrate since it was the first time i signed him off, or not since it was his thrid try at the checkride. I have heard yes, and no..just seeing what you guys thought about it.

 

[Clocks]

I always assumed you had to sign off the student for their first attempt, and have them pass. Otherwise every bust would only really be half of a bust if they passed their second try.

(2) Presenting to an authorized FAA Flight Standards Inspector—
(i) A record of training students showing that, during the preceding 24 calendar months, the flight instructor has endorsed at least five students for a practical test for a certificate or rating and at least 80 percent of those students passed that test on the first attempt;

It doesn't say "80 percent of those students passed that test after being endorsed by that flight instructor for the first time". So it doesn't count for you at all.

 

[moxiepilot]

no. clocks is correct. signoff pass/fail statistics are from the first attempt only, not additional retries.

 

[tgrayson]

Can i count that as a pass for my passrate since it was the first time i signed him off, or not since it was his thrid try at the checkride.

I suspect no one really knows. If you called a handful of FSDO's, you'd probably get different answers.

So far, I've never had any FSDO actually check the list of passes that I handed them. Without the certificate numbers of the people, it'd be hard to look up that way.

Since that signoff is either going to work for you or against you, I'd include it as a first-time pass; after all, the first-time pass thing is a measure of the instructor, not the student, and it was a first-time pass for you. If they turn around and disallow it, nothing is lost.

 

[nosehair]

I suspect no one really knows. If you called a handful of FSDO's, you'd probably get different answers.

This is true, and mainly means that no one cares, usually.

So far, I've never had any FSDO actually check the list of passes that I handed them. Without the certificate numbers of the people, it'd be hard to look up that way.

me either. See previous response.

Since that signoff is either going to work for you or against you, I'd include it as a first-time pass; after all, the first-time pass thing is a measure of the instructor, not the student, and it was a first-time pass for you. If they turn around and disallow it, nothing is lost.

"They" would only disallow it if "they" were looking for something to go after you for, which would/could be the technical violation of "falsification".

The regulation specifically says "first time pass". When you are working with a re-test, you don't get credit, even if it is a first time for you.

 

[tgrayson]

The regulation specifically says "first time pass". When you are working with a re-test, you don't get credit, even if it is a first time for you.

Again, speculation represented as fact.

 

[exleardriver]

Again, speculation represented as fact.

+1. regardless of that specific wording, it's a reasonable question to ask of your local fsdo. i've done a handful of re-tests over the years and they've always counted in my region. in fact, i sometimes do the remedial training necessary for a complete re-examination if someone has lost their certificate. in each case, i've had to fill out the new 8710, checking the 're-examination' box. in the last case, the chief safety inspector arrived to give the 709 ride, reviewed my remedial training records and decided to actually waive the ride requirement, and returned the man his certificate. i asked..and it actually meant that the inspector assumed responsibility for anything subsequent and even went further to say that even without the ride, i could count the 8710 i filled out and gave to him as a 'pass' for purposes of maintaining my cfi currency. this inspector has a stack of pending 709's..this won't be my last remedial. so, i agree..check with your local fsdo. :bandit:

 

[Clocks]

Again, speculation represented as fact.

Are there any facts on this?

I really don't see how "passed that test on the first attempt" could be interpreted to mean anything other than the student passing that test on the first attempt. Unless you consider every recheck as a brand new "test". In which case a CFI who has 1 student who busted their first attempt and passed their recheck has a 50% pass rate?

Doesn't this go back to the whole "pilots reading regs to mean what ever they want that day" debate? Unless of course the FAA has spoken on this, which I haven't seen.

 

[exleardriver]

I really don't see how "passed that test on the first attempt" could be interpreted to mean anything other than the student passing that test on the first attempt. Unless you consider every recheck as a brand new "test".

Doesn't this go back to the whole "pilots reading regs to mean what ever they want that day" debate? Unless of course the FAA has spoken on this, which I haven't seen.

in many cases i've asked my local fsdo, as in this one. they're your local word from oklahoma city. it's worth a call. it's true that not all dpe's and faa fsdo's and inspectors agree completely to the letter on every question for sure. :bandit:

 

[tgrayson]

Are there any facts on this?

Not that I'm aware.

I really don't see how "passed that test on the first attempt" could be interpreted to mean anything other than the student passing that test on the first attempt.

It says "the first attempt". Whose first attempt, the student's or the instructor's?

Arguably, since this is a measure of instructor proficiency, the fact that a student failed with a previous instructor has no bearing on the new instructor's ability.

If an instructor accepted five students who failed their first try with a previous instructor and passed first time with the new instructor, is it fair to for this new instructor to essentially have five failures bringing his average first-time pass rate down? Would this instructor advertise that he has a 0% first-time pass rate? I think not.

There are two possible interpretations to this regulation and either can be argued for, but they remain only arguments. Without case law or a letter of interpretation, it would be wrong to represent one position or other as fact.

 

[Clocks]

If an instructor accepted five students who failed their first try with a previous instructor and passed first time with the new instructor, is it fair to for this new instructor to essentially have five failures bringing his average first-time pass rate down? Would this instructor advertise that he has a 0% first-time pass rate? I think not.

Taking up someone else's student to work on power-off 180s for an hour hardly earns an instructor a "100% pass rate", in my opinion . Of course the retraining could be more extensive...but still nothing approaching the amount of initial training that was invested in that student.

Considering you could have a 4% pass rate out of 100 students and bring those names to the FSDO to renew your certificate makes me wonder why people would need to interpret this reg so liberally. With the obvious exception being the CFI who has only signed off 5 students in the last 2 years, one of whom he spent an hour in the pattern with before signing off for a recheck .

 

[tgrayson]

Taking up someone else's student to work on power-off 180s for an hour hardly earns an instructor a "100% pass rate", in my opinion . Of course the retraining could be more extensive...but still nothing approaching the amount of initial training that was invested in that student.

Well, I agree with that. But consider that you could also inherit a student with 99% of his training complete and only needing checkride prep, which you provide and he passes. Do you deserve getting credit for that pass when the previous instructor did most of the work? It'd be hard to come up with an interpretation that was fair under all circumstances.

In general, I don't have a high respect for the FSDO interpretation of the regulations, but in this case, their decision creates rightness. The criteria used for them to approve your renewal isn't recorded or kept in any way, so there will be no one to second guess their decisions. I'd walk in there prepared with the argument.

 

[butt]

Allowing another instructor to come in and signoff a student for a checkride retry, and having it count towards their pass rate, to me sounds like the FAA is opening themselves up to a lot of unfairness. Whether it's officially "allowed" or not, I have no idea.

When I first took my instrument checkride, I messed up the DME arc by setting up the GPS wrong. The DPE said basically "you just failed, do you want to continue, or just go back?" I said I want to continue. The rest of the flight went well, the partial panel approach was good, the holds were done right, etc. Basically all I had to do was jump in the sim, log 0.1 of "remedial training", and have my instructor do another 8710. When I redid my checkride, all we did was takeoff, join a 10 mile arc, fly it for about 2 minutes, then he said "you pass, lets head back"

The thought of another instructor benefiting from giving me that 0.1 of sim and re-doing my 8710, while my other instructor gets punished for all he did, just seems unfair. Anyways, whats to stop my instructor from "selling" my 8710 to another instructor so someone else can get a bump in their percentage? I've never been a fan of the idea of passrate being used as a measure of an instructor's ability, and now I'm an even less of a fan.

 

[exleardriver]

were it left to my discretion as an faa inspector, i'd be satisfied when initial failures were corrected by the instructor, and subsequently the student passed. were it me..i'd count it. i'd be more interested in knowing that ultimately the instructor got the job done, rather than give a 'blanket penalty' for failure on first attempt. fortunately, it's been my experience that most inspectors actually share this view. they just want to see a good record of an instructor doing his/her job for a fair number of applicants.

 

[skatergeek]

ok i emailed the local FSDO and here is what they said.

"Tyler,
Good question. Once a year, our database automatically pulls the names of
all flight instructors who have less than a 70% pass rate. The database
does not discriminate on how many attempts the applicant has made. The
instrument rating applicant who passed goes down as a "pass" on your
instructor pass rate. His previous attempts would not show up under your
certificate number, since you did not previously endorse.

The instructor who DID endorse him now has a 0% pass rate with this
student, instead of a 33% which he would have had-had he endorsed him for
the pass.

Morale of the story.....make darn sure YOUR students are ready before you
sign the back of the 8710. Congrats on your pass, and good luck to you!"

 

[tgrayson]

His previous attempts would not show up under your certificate number, since you did not previously endorse.

Good research and kudos to the FSDO for responding so rapidly. The way I read the response is that the student who failed under another instructor but passed with you would count towards your first-time passes.

 

[exleardriver]

Good research and kudos to the FSDO for responding so rapidly. The way I read the response is that the student who failed under another instructor but passed with you would count towards your first-time passes.

+1. this has always been my understanding.