CFI-I Privileges

[Dazzler]

Apart from signing off a student to take the knowledge and practical test for an instrument rating, and teaching the student in actual conditions, what other privileges does a CFI-I have that a regular CFI doesn't?

I mean a CFI can teach hood work towards an instrument rating can't (s)he?

 

[caliginousface]

i don't think they can go as far as approaches and procedures, but BAI you can.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Apart from signing off a student to take the knowledge and practical test for an instrument rating, and teaching the student in actual conditions, what other privileges does a CFI-I have that a regular CFI doesn't?

I mean a CFI can teach hood work towards an instrument rating can't (s)he?

No. While a one-I can teach hood work all she wants, none of it can be counted toward the 15 hour instrument training requirement.

On the other hand, there is nothing that prohibits a one-I from teaching a student in actual IMC.

In terms of meeting training requirements, most of the privileges of a CFI-I over a one-I come down to two phrases "instrument training" and "instrument instruction." If an FAR refers to a requirement using one of these two phrases, in order to count, the instruction must be given by a CFII.

There are some other CFII privileges that don't use the phrase. The "authorized instructor" for an IPC and for a pilot who wants to log instrument time in a simulator or FTD needs to have that instrument rating on the instructor certificate.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

. . . but BAI you can.

Not for an instrument rating.

 

[fender_jag]

There are five privileges that a II has: 1) teaching/signing off IIs, 2)signoffs for the Instrument written, 3)signoffs for the Instrument ride, 4)IPC, and 5)ATP re-check.

 

[Dazzler]

There are five privileges that a II has: 1) teaching/signing off IIs, 2)signoffs for the Instrument written, 3)signoffs for the Instrument ride, 4)IPC, and 5)ATP re-check.

That's different from what MidlifeFlyer was saying.
Who's right?

 

[BrettInLJ]

61.195
(b) Aircraft Ratings.
A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.

This is an "and" with 61.195 (c), Instrument Rating, so this restriction still would apply.

Tomorrow I am going with an instrument student to Florida in his Bonanza. I have a CFII and MEI, but not a CFI-A yet. For this reason since it will be filed IFR, I am the PIC but cannot count it as instruction given. If this flight was in a twin (like a Cessna 310 flight that fell through at the last minute earlier today), I could give instruction because I have the MEI.

That is the way I interpret it at least.

 

[roundout]

There are five privileges that a II has: 1) teaching/signing off IIs, 2)signoffs for the Instrument written, 3)signoffs for the Instrument ride, 4)IPC, and 5)ATP re-check.

6. only the CFII can give the 3 hours of instrument training required for commercial applicants.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

6. only the CFII can give the 3 hours of instrument training required for commercial applicants.

I think it's 10 instrument for commercial airplane, but yes, it has to be given by a CFII because the reg requires "instrument training"

7. Teaching the required hours for the instrument rating. Seems he missed the most obvious one, unless "II" in number 1 was meant to be "IR."

 

[roundout]

good catch, but i know what he's getting at. a CFII can give instruction to a CFII applicant as long as it's not for the initial certificate, unless the CFII giving training is qualified to teach CFI initial.

and you're right again, it is 10 hours. don't know what i was thinking. momentary lapse of reason.

 

[BrettInLJ]

good catch, but i know what he's getting at. a CFII can give instruction to a CFII applicant as long as it's not for the initial certificate, unless the CFII giving training is qualified to teach CFI initial.

and you're right again, it is 10 hours. don't know what i was thinking. momentary lapse of reason.

Actually he or she could give instruction for the initial either way. Only, they would not be qualified to sign them off for the initial. For example I could have got a bunch of instruction for my initial CFII from any instructor at my school, but then I would need to finish off with the chief or assistant chief pilot who would have to give me the endorements.

 

[bob loblaw]

I think it's 10 instrument for commercial airplane, but yes, it has to be given by a CFII because the reg requires "instrument training"

This is incorrect! A CFI can do the entire training for a commercial student including the 10 hours of instrument training for the commercial rating. Lets put it this way, this is the same as saying a CFII has to give a student the 3 hours of instrument training that is required for the private license. This is simply not correct. A CFI can give the entire training (including the instrument training ) for a commercial license.

 

[VicariousLiving]

I think it's 10 instrument for commercial airplane, but yes, it has to be given by a CFII because the reg requires "instrument training"

This is incorrect! A CFI can do the entire training for a commercial student including the 10 hours of instrument training for the commercial rating. Lets put it this way, this is the same as saying a CFII has to give a student the 3 hours of instrument training that is required for the private license. This is simply not correct. A CFI can give the entire training (including the instrument training ) for a commercial license.

The FARs regarding the private certificate:

§ 61.109 Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least—
...
(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight...

For the commercial certificate:

§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience.

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph
...
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a single-engine airplane...


The difference in wording is very important. A CFI (IOW, no -I on the certificate) may provide instruction "on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments". Only a CFI-IA may provide "instrument training...in a(n)...airplane".

IOW, Mark is correct quite.

 

[bob loblaw]

The FARs regarding the private certificate:

§ 61.109 Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least—
...
(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight...

For the commercial certificate:

§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience.

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph
...
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a single-engine airplane...


The difference in wording is very important. A CFI (IOW, no -I on the certificate) may provide instruction "on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments". Only a CFI-IA may provide "instrument training...in a(n)...airplane".

IOW, Mark is correct quite.

The statement made was a CFII must do the instrument training portion of the commercial rating. This statement is incorrect. A CFI may give a commercial student the entire training including the instrument training for the commercial. Refer to FAR 61.129 (a) (3) (i) which reads 10 hours of instrument training of which atleast 5 hours must be in single engine airplanes. The private pilot statement was for contrast. Again, his statement is incorrect, a CFI may give the entire training including the 10 hours of instrument training for a commercial rating.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

The statement made was a CFII must do the instrument training portion of the commercial rating. This statement is incorrect. A CFI may give a commercial student the entire training including the instrument training for the commercial. Refer to FAR 61.129 (a) (3) (i) which reads 10 hours of instrument training of which atleast 5 hours must be in single engine airplanes. The private pilot statement was for contrast. Again, his statement is incorrect, a CFI may give the entire training including the 10 hours of instrument training for a commercial rating.

Negative, Sir. This is something that I've actually gone directly to the FSDO for, and had much clarification.

The 10 hours of instrument training is something that we usually take for granted, since most commercial applicants already have an instrument rating. So, most of us already had the 10 hours. However, this is a part of the regulations that has a history in the "good ole' days", when more commercial applicants skipped the instrument rating. The intent behind the 10 hours of instrument training was to ensure that commercial applicants had at least some basic training and understanding with regards to Instrument Flight.

Since this was the intent, the instruction has to be done by somebody that is expected to have a reasonable instructional knowledge of Instrument Flight.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

The statement made was a CFII must do the instrument training portion of the commercial rating. This statement is incorrect. A CFI may give a commercial student the entire training including the instrument training for the commercial. Refer to FAR 61.129 (a) (3) (I) which reads 10 hours of instrument training of which atleast 5 hours must be in single engine airplanes. The private pilot statement was for contrast. Again, his statement is incorrect, a CFI may give the entire training including the 10 hours of instrument training for a commercial rating.

Sorry Bob, but long-standing FAA interpretations of the language say that you are incorrect. Any time the words "instrument training" or "instrument instruction" are used as a requirement, it means training by a instructor with an instrument rating on the instructor certificate.

Here's one of the older opinions on the subject. It's dated June 20, 1979 so some of the section numbers may have changed a bit, but it has the virtue of talking about the private and commercial certificate and the instrument rating.

==============================
Since Section 61.65(e)(2) refers to "instrument instruction" by an authorized instructor, the instructor must have an instrument instruction rating. Section 61.107 refers to "instruction from an authorized instructor" and to "control and maneuvering an airplane solely by reference to instruments," rather than to "instrument instruction;" therefore, any certificated flight instructor (CFI) may give the type of instruction described in FAR 61.107. The instrument instruction required by FAR 61.129(b)(2)(I) must be given by a certificated flight instructor with instrument instruction rating. Other non-instrument instruction required by FAR 61.127 may be given by any CFI.
==============================