CFI-I In a Multi

Baronman

Well-Known Member
I flew a couple of nights ago in his Baron shooting approaches, holding etc. Can I log this as Dual Given even though I'm not an MEI but a CFI-I. I believe so....
 

Buzo

Well-Known Member
As long as you have a commercial multi rating you can log it. The person getting the training would also have to be rated in the airplane though. The only time you need the MEI is to do training towards a multi rating.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
If you're a CFI-IA and you hold a commercial ticket with multi-engine privileges you can log it as dual. The double I "works" with whatever you hold a commercial in (within the airplane category).
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
If you're a CFI-IA and you hold a commercial ticket with multi-engine privileges you can log it as dual. The double I "works" with whatever you hold a commercial in (within the airplane category).

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That is my understanding as well.
 

Baronman

Well-Known Member
Braidkid, still sticking to your opinion? You're the one hold out in the group


I do have a multi-comm, the "student" also has a multi-comm and is intrument rated.
 

Buzo

Well-Known Member
It would be the same as saying a CFII with no CFI couldn't teach in singles since there is no CFI on the cert. The CFII is instrument airplane, there is no distinction between single and multil
 

Jason

Well-Known Member
I'm goin' with Bradikid - I have nothing to back this up regs wise except that I just took my CFII ride last week and the examiner and I discussed this very issue and he said to give any kind of instruction in a multi you MUST have an MEI. I don't know wether he's right or wrong and quite frankly I don't care but he is an examiner so I owuld tend to believe him.

Jason
 

172_Captain

New Member
No CFI or MEI needed....right?

This is coming from the back of my mind so correct me if I'm wrong. If your Commercial rated in a Multi airplane, you can give flight instruction without a CFI or MEI rating however, you can't endorse the the student for a practical test. Same holds true for Single Commercial.
 

Buzo

Well-Known Member
The FAA FAQ's page and AOPA address this issue. It is perfectly legal.

You can also endorse the applicant. You just cannot give them trainin in anything other than instrument procedures or procedures related to the instrument rating.
 

braidkid

New Member
FAR 61.195 (b)(1) states:
A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold: A pilot certificate AND flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating.

Sounds to me like you have to have multi engine priviliges on your instructor ticket before you can instruct in a multi. Therefore you could not log it as dual given.
 

Buzo

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
FAR 61.195 (b)(1) states:
A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold: A pilot certificate AND flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating.

Sounds to me like you have to have multi engine priviliges on your instructor ticket before you can instruct in a multi. Therefore you could not log it as dual given.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, 61.195b refers to training to an aircraft rating, which is not what is being discussed. That applies to initial training for the particular aircraft rating, ASEL, AMEL, etc.

91.195c refers to instrument training. A flight instrctor who provieds instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instuctor certicate and pilot certicate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which the instrument training is being provided.

So the Instructor would hold a Multi rating on there pilot certificate, and a flight instructor cert with Instrument category rating. There is no such thing as an instrument class rating so it looks like the regs are met.
 

rausda27

Well-Known Member
How can the CFI-I do a single engine ILS without the MEI, which is a requirement for Multi IFR certification.
 

Buzo

Well-Known Member
This is off of the FAA website:

QUESTION: What are the privileges held by a CFI - Instrument Airplane “only” (no single or multiengine rating) on his CFI with respect to instructing instrument procedures in a multi-engine airplane. He has multi-engine rating on his commercial certificate. Can he, while instructing instruments, simulate engine failure? Can he demonstrate VMC? Can he simulate engine failure during takeoff prior to 50% of VMC? Etc.

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.193(f) and § 61.195(f); Per § 61.193(f), a person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating is authorized within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate and ratings to give training and endorsements that are required for, and relate to an Instrument-Airplane rating. And per § 61.195(f), in pertinent part, states a flight instructor may not give training required for the issuance of a certificate or rating in a multiengine airplane unless that flight instructor has at least 5 flight hours of pilot-in-command time in the specific make and model of multiengine airplane. These sections 61.193(f) and 61.195(f) are the only regulatory requirements that even remotely addresses your question.

Since training on the Vmc maneuver and procedure is not a task associated with the Instrument-Airplane rating, a person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating may NOT give the training required for that maneuver and procedure.

Since the training on the simulating engine failure during takeoff prior to 50% of Vmc is not a task associated with the Instrument-Airplane rating, a person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating may NOT give the training required for that maneuver and procedure.

However, there is no regulatory requirement in Part 61, other than § 61.193(f) and § 61.195(f) that apply. There is nothing that legally prohibits a person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating and has at least 5 flight hours of pilot-in-command time in the specific make and model of multiengine airplane per § 61.195(f) from giving the training required for the maneuver and procedure on “One engine inoperative during straight-and-level flight and turns (multiengine)” because the maneuver and procedure on “One engine inoperative during straight-and-level flight and turns (multiengine)” is a task associated with the Instrument-Airplane rating.

Likewise, there is no regulatory requirement in Part 61, other than § 61.193(f) and § 61.195(f), that legally prohibits a person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating from giving the training required for the maneuver and procedure on “One engine inoperative—instrument approach (multiengine)” because the maneuver and procedure on “One engine inoperative—instrument approach (multiengine)” is a task associated with the Instrument-Airplane rating.

Unfortunately, Part 61 and every other rule does not regulate judgment! I can't imagine an owner of an aircraft or an insurance company ever allowing rental of their multiengine airplane to a person who does not hold an airplane multiengine rating on his/her flight instructor certificate when that person intends to give training on engine inoperative maneuvers.

The following are the areas of operation and tasks that relate to an Instrument-Airplane rating. A person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating may provide training on the following areas of operation and tasks that are associated with an Instrument-Airplane rating:

I. Preflight preparation
A. Weather information
B. Cross-country flight planning
II. Preflight procedures
A. Aircraft systems related to IFR operations
B. Aircraft flight instruments and navigation equipment
C. Instrument cockpit check
III. Air traffic control clearances and procedures
A. Air traffic control clearances
B. Compliance with departure, en route, and arrival procedures and clearances
C. Holding procedures
IV. Flight by reference to instruments
A. Straight-and-level flight
B. Change of airspeed
C. Constant airspeed climbs and descents
D. Rate climbs and descents
E. Timed turns to magnetic compass headings
F. Steep turns
G. Recovery from unusual flight attitudes
V. Navigation systems
Intercepting and tracking navigational systems and DME arcs
VI. Instrument approach procedures
A. Nonprecision instrument approach
B. Precision ILS instrument approach
C. Missed approach
D. Circling approach
E. Landing from a straight-in or circling approach
VII. Emergency operations
A. Loss of communications
B. One engine inoperative during straight-and-level flight and turns (multiengine)
C. One engine inoperative—instrument approach (multiengine)
D. Loss of gyro attitude and/or heading indicators
VIII. Postflight procedures
Checking instruments and equipment
 

davidhigbie

Well-Known Member
Thats good stuff...so I guess the bottom line is that "legally" one could probably do it but that it may not pass the common sense test.

Also, I would bet any examiner would have a problem with giving a practical test to an applicant who has been trained by such an instructor.

Just thought of this- could the CFII log multi PIC time while teaching instrument stuff in a multi-engine airplane? I wouldnt think so.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
Thats good stuff...so I guess the bottom line is that "legally" one could probably do it but that it may not pass the common sense test.

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Why wouldn't it? If someone were wanting to get an instrument rating (or multi-IA priviliges) they already know Vmc, runway cuts etc. All the CFII is doing is teching instrument procedures.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I would bet any examiner would have a problem with giving a practical test to an applicant who has been trained by such an instructor.

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Again why? Has a DE ever asked you about what ratings your CFI held? As long as it's signed off that's about as far as they look. As to quality of training issues see above comment.


[ QUOTE ]
Just thought of this- could the CFII log multi PIC time while teaching instrument stuff in a multi-engine airplane? I wouldnt think so.

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Yes. The CFII is rated (remember he/she has to hold a commercial) and is giving dual instruction. The question is why/how couldn't he/she log PIC. Especially if the student is under the hood.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Riddle me this.

You hold a Comm-AMEL. CFI, MEI.

You get approached by a guy that just bought his own multi, but only has a PVT-ASEL, and wants to get multi training in his plane in order to be able to fly it. The plane is a multi-engine seaplane. Can you teach get him his multi? Even though to fly this plane, he'd need an MES class rating?
 
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