Certificate action scenario

B

Boilermaker21

New Member
Ok heres a little scenario.....i heard this being explained to me by a friend of the family who was a former FAA inspector that involves which pilots ticket would get action or the worst action taken against it .....

Ok so two pilots each with private certificates are getting ready to depart on a trip somewhere, part 91, in a single engine aircraft together, in the same aircraft....then comes me, and i have a CFI certificate....i also need to go to this location....so anyway, i ask if i can ride in the back and they let me.....along the way, these guys bust some big time regulation and get the FAA guys on our tails.... now the question is, since I am highest on the food chain in terms of certificates, me having a CFI and these guys only having private certificates, are the FAA guys going to come after me for certificate action because even though I wasnt up front acting as PIC and only riding in the back, not even part of the flight just along for the ride back home, I was still the final authority to the flight because of my certificate status?....
(end of story)

Now if the guy i was talking to about this scenario was refering to air carrier op's then even if the captain gets up to go to the lav, etc they are still the PIC, final authority, etc....but for part 91?...maybe i misunderstood his story...what do you guys think......the FAA guy summed up by saying they would come after my ticket in the end because of me being higher up than the private guys and it didnt matter that i was in the back seat snoozing and along for the ride....
 
Yes, the FAA will pursue certificate action against you. The lawyers will really come after you. If you have anything worth taking, the lawyers will go after it in this scenario.

If you're riding in the back of an airliner, no, you're not going to have to worry about it. You're not in a position where you can communicate with the pilots even if you wanted to.

Will the captain of an airliner be held responsible if the FO does something stupid while he's in the lav? yes.
 
Yes they mentioned this in my MEI ground school. If you go on a flight with someone and you're highest on the food chain, make sure you get in writing that you are not the pilot in command and you are just a passenger.
 
So you can just write up a contract stating you want nothing to do with the flight and want no responsibilities should an accident/incident occur? Thats interesting and ive never heard that take on something like that before. So do you think that a contract written between two pilots would stand up in a court when deciding if and what type of action should be taken on a pilots certificate?
 
It couldn't hurt. If you ever deal with the FAA you will find out fast that they want to have everything "in writing". Anytime you say something, expect to hear "could you please put that in writing for me" as soon as you finish talking.

Written documents to cover your ass are never a bad idea....in situations like this where you want no resonsiblity for the flight, having that document could relieve you from responsibility from any accidents, but a good enough lawyer could probably still get around it. The bottom line is you probably wouldn't want to go to sleep in this scenario. Keep your head in the ballgame and make sure they don't do anything stupid.

It's also a good idea to draft up a written agreement if you find yourself flying a rental plane around for a non-pilot under part 91. You should mention how the aircraft rental and your services are in no way financially connected, that the renter is assuming responsiblity for the airplane, that the renter makes decisions about wether or not to operate the airplane, that the renter understands the flight is being conducted under part 91, etc etc.
 
I've heard the story. Personally, I think it's an urban legend.

In the scenario you describe, the FAA will definitely =look at= all of the pilots on board and try to determine what the relationship was. If all of the facts and circumstances indicate that the CFI was just a passenger, his certificate is probably secure.
 
In the sea kayak world, a certified instructor who tagged along on an informal group paddle was sucessfully sued after a smaller group split off of the main group. The conditions were rough and one of them drowned. The arguement was that even though the instructor wasn't 'officially leading' and was not part of the group that got into trouble, his status as a leader automatically made him responsible. I would imagine if that arguement can be made in the sea kayaking world, it could probably be made in the world of aviation as well.

Heck on our litigious society and the people who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions!
mad.gif
 
So in this senerio and I am a kayak instuctor and decided to go on a group paddle in Colorado when I usually do my training in Washington and there was an accident they can still come after me? Now, what if I signed up and NO ONE knew I was an instructor? Same results?
(I know this is off topic but I am trying to figure this out in my own weird way!
confused.gif
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[ QUOTE ]
So in this senerio and I am a kayak instuctor and decided to go on a group paddle in Colorado when I usually do my training in Washington and there was an accident they can still come after me? Now, what if I signed up and NO ONE knew I was an instructor? Same results?
(I know this is off topic but I am trying to figure this out in my own weird way!
confused.gif
)

[/ QUOTE ]

Confusion is appropriate; the law sucks. Anyway, to be liable for failing to protect somebody else from a situation you didn't create, you generally would have to have done something to indicate that you were taking responsibility to look out for their well being. If you were just along for the ride (and no one knew you were an instructor), it's hard to see how you could be required to speak up (for liability purposes . . . the FAA no doubt would have a different view). On the other hand, if you took a leadership role, or even if the others simply knew you were a knowledgeable instructor, it could be found that you expressly or implied had assumed some responsibility to watch out for the well being of the group. Then liability is possible.

And, always bear in mind that little things like "facts" and "laws" usually won't prevent an ambulance chaser from naming everyone under the sun in the hopes that someone will pay out some money.

Not that I'm biased.

MF
 
What if I am a passenger in the back of twin Cessna 303, the pilots have pulled the curtain, and I am enjoying my gin tonic in the back; then they fly into a class B airspace, without a clearance. Since I am the highest in the food chain, do you think the FAA will come after me? I think not.
No real difference with a lighter twin or even a single engine.
 
[ QUOTE ]
What if I am a passenger in the back of twin Cessna 303, the pilots have pulled the curtain, and I am enjoying my gin tonic in the back; then they fly into a class B airspace, without a clearance. Since I am the highest in the food chain, do you think the FAA will come after me? I think not.
No real difference with a lighter twin or even a single engine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Watch, they'll come after you AND bust you on the 8 hour bottle to throttle reg!

haha
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[ QUOTE ]
In the sea kayak world, a certified instructor who tagged along on an informal group paddle was sucessfully sued after a smaller group split off of the main group. The conditions were rough and one of them drowned. The argument was that even though the instructor wasn't 'officially leading' and was not part of the group that got into trouble, his status as a leader automatically made him responsible. I would imagine if that argument can be made in the sea kayaking world, it could probably be made in the world of aviation as well.

Heck on our litigious society and the people who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions!
mad.gif


[/ QUOTE ]Is there an official reference to that story? Most of the repeats on stories like that one tend to leave out details to make the point the that the teller wants to make - usually to help someone who was actually acting in a leadership role (no matter what the "official title") from taking responsibility for their own actions by casting the blame somewhere else (a process obviously not limited to litigation).
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the sea kayak world, a certified instructor who tagged along on an informal group paddle was sucessfully sued after a smaller group split off of the main group. The conditions were rough and one of them drowned. The argument was that even though the instructor wasn't 'officially leading' and was not part of the group that got into trouble, his status as a leader automatically made him responsible. I would imagine if that argument can be made in the sea kayaking world, it could probably be made in the world of aviation as well.

Heck on our litigious society and the people who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions!
mad.gif


[/ QUOTE ]Is there an official reference to that story? Most of the repeats on stories like that one tend to leave out details to make the point the that the teller wants to make - usually to help someone who was actually acting in a leadership role (no matter what the "official title") from taking responsibility for their own actions by casting the blame somewhere else (a process obviously not limited to litigation).

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, there is, indeed, official reference. The guy was an instructor who was coming back from a kayak symposium where he WAS an instructor and trip guide. After the symposium was over, there was an informal gathering at a popular spot on Lake Superior. The group went out - not as a syposium function but mostly with paddlers who had been at the symposium - and some people in the split-off group got in trouble. One drowned. He was blamed for not exercising control over the group and the informal paddle was considered an extension of the symposium activities in the courts. It was NOT and post-symp day and overnight trips are common among groups of paddler-buddies. Everyone on the paddle knew that nobody was responsible for anyone else, but the deceased persons family saw it differently. This happened in '95 and I was also an instructor at the symposium. Luckily I went on a different post-symp trip . . .
frown.gif
 
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maybe someone should ask the mythbusters to solve this dilemma...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the best show ever!! With the possible exception of Family Guy.
 
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