Center giving vectors to approach.

Goreman11

Goreman11

Well-Known Member
This has happened on multiple occasions. All the pilots just have ideas, so I need a controllers perspective. Getting vectors for the approach. Then I quote " cross the localizer at 10000, radar services terminated. Contact tower". I was still IMC.

To me radar services terminated would mean I am no longer on a clearance. The only thing I can think of that there is some kind of LOA with the tower. Class D by the way.

Any idea? If you want more info please ask.
 
No, it means you are no longer under radar contact. There should have been a direct -point-, cleared ______ approach. Other than that, nothing surprising unless I'm reading it wrong...which is possible, as it's after 5 here.

I was a newly minted Instrument pilot a long time ago, flying in Arizona, and got the same, cleared approach, radar services terminated, and switch frequencies. I squawked VFR, thinking I was done with the IFR clearance or something. I was a newly minted instrument pilot from Riddle Daytona, and had no clue what was going on.

Needless to say, I was asked politely WTF, and learned my lesson for the day.
 
Stone cold is correct, radar service does not equal IFR clearance. You are still on an IFR flight plan, approach at that point, but you must make any non radar reports that you would be required to.
 
From the .65:
5−1−13. RADAR SERVICE TERMINATION
a. Inform aircraft when radar service is
terminated.
PHRASEOLOGY−
RADAR SERVICE TERMINATED (nonradar routing if
required).
b. Radar service is automatically terminated and
the aircraft needs not be advised of termination when:
NOTE−
1. Termination of radar monitoring when conducting
simultaneous ILS/MLS approaches is prescribed in
para 5−9−7, Simultaneous Independent ILS/MLS
Approaches− Dual & Triple.
2. Termination of radar monitoring where PAR equipment
is used to monitor approaches is prescribed in
para 5−13−3, Monitor Information.
1. An aircraft cancels its IFR flight plan, except
within Class B airspace, Class C airspace, TRSA, or
where basic radar service is provided.
2. An aircraft conducting an instrument, visual,
or contact approach has landed or has been instructed
to change to advisory frequency.
4/3/14 JO 7110.65V
General 5−1−5
3. At tower-controlled airports where radar
coverage does not exist to within 1/2 mile of the end
of the runway, arriving aircraft must be informed
when radar service is terminated.
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Basically, some towers do have radar in the cab or an approach control usually has radar almost to the ground for most of the airports they serve, Centers on the other hand rarely do so if they are giving you an approach to an airport with a vfr tower they must tell you radar service is terminated before switching you to the tower. If the tower isn't there the termination is assumed under b2. If you shot the missed approach you are flying non-radar until the controller once again radar identifies you ("Radar contact 5 miles south of blah...").

I can understand the confusion but just remember VFR flight following is a radar service provided by the controller. Thus they have to terminate it when you cancel flight following.
 
Exactly. Radar service termination is required when radar coverage doesn't exist within 0.5nm of the runway. It has nothing to do with your IFR clearance. Center has you on radar long enough to get you onto the approach, but won't maintain that radar coverage throughout your approach to the runway so they have to tell you prior to switching you over to the tower.
 
That all makes sense. Especially when there was a fifteen minute wait in between outbound departures from the same airport later in the day. Was later told LA Center was having some radar outages. Thank you everybody.

Funny note. Use to work for Raytheon and heard "look it up in the .65 all the time"

THanks again
 
Goreman11 said:
This has happened on multiple occasions. All the pilots just have ideas, so I need a controllers perspective. Getting vectors for the approach. Then I quote " cross the localizer at 10000, radar services terminated. Contact tower". I was still IMC.

To me radar services terminated would mean I am no longer on a clearance. The only thing I can think of that there is some kind of LOA with the tower. Class D by the way.

Any idea? If you want more info please ask.
Click to expand...

Center handles approach control duties at many controlled and uncontrolled airports. Where did this happen?

Some approach controls don't have radar. I think Clinton Sherman OK is still a non-radar facility and they work a lot of heavy jet aircraft. Took my instrument check ride there in 1978. Vectors to final is for little girls.

My Texas based friend flew an approach down a canyon in Alaska hard IMC to minimums. The approach clearance from center went something like this. N12345 maintain 12,000 until (feeder vor), cleared for approach. Radar services terminated, good luck.

He said he could have done without the Good Luck or the deer in headlights look from the wife.
 
@fholbert it was going into to KGCN. It was not the lack of vectors I was worried about it. It was how he gave the approach clearance that threw me off.
 
Goreman11 said:
@fholbert it was going into to KGCN. It was not the lack of vectors I was worried about it. It was how he gave the approach clearance that threw me off.
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I think he was terminating radar with you so you could go over to unicom and find out the sightseeing operators land to the north and depart to the south regardless of winds at Grand Canyon North to reduce taxi times. When in Rome...

In addition I don't think they have radar coverage much below 10,000 in that area.

You could also find out they are getting $7.20 a gallon for 100LL! At Chino we are $3.99 off the truck.
 
fholbert said:
In addition I don't think they have radar coverage much below 10,000 in that area.
Click to expand...

Sounds about right. Years ago I was taking a student back down to Willie from Page and somewhere between Tuba City and Grand Canyon we started to get carb ice on both engines in the Seminole. We couldn't clear it and start drifting down from 12,000. The controller lost us on radar at about 10,000 and radio at 9800. There terrain was about 8000 there. It was at night. A rather nasty situation that resolved it self with warmer air around 9500 feet.
 
BobDDuck said:
Sounds about right. Years ago I was taking a student back down to Willie from Page and somewhere between Tuba City and Grand Canyon we started to get carb ice on both engines in the Seminole. We couldn't clear it and start drifting down from 12,000. The controller lost us on radar at about 10,000 and radio at 9800. There terrain was about 8000 there. It was at night. A rather nasty situation that resolved it self with warmer air around 9500 feet.
Click to expand...

When something like that happens your butt seems to eat your underwear. Never found mine after an engine fire in a Cherokee 6.
 
fholbert said:
I think he was terminating radar with you so you could go over to unicom and find out the sightseeing operators land to the north and depart to the south regardless of winds at Grand Canyon North to reduce taxi times. When in Rome...

In addition I don't think they have radar coverage much below 10,000 in that area.

You could also find out they are getting $7.20 a gallon for 100LL! At Chino we are $3.99 off the truck.
Click to expand...

Have to save that three minute taxi somehow. The upside to being the reason that tower is even their. And come on it 10 k feet long. Even the 737 takes the 10 knot tailwind.
 
We terminate radar service landing at KRYY because there is not radar coverage to the ground. You are still IFR.....that doesn't preclude a great deal of pilots to squak 1200:fury:
 
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