Cargo Flying Article

From what I could tell, I didn't notice a whole lot of difference b/w the guys with 1000/150 and the guys with 300-400 ME. I had around 250 ME, all but 20 of that in the previous 12 months. My sim partner was mostly a SE guy (had his MEI, but couldn't get multi students to save his life a UVSC). He had about 300 hours more than I did, and we were on an even keel.

Txpilot, yeah I'm hoping Jet U fades away, too. If not, we're gonna have to hunt even harder to get check airmen 'cause I think a lot of the current ones will say "screw it." If we're both in MSP (or anywhere else for that matter), I'll definately take ya up on the offer.
 
kellwolf said:
Txpilot, yeah I'm hoping Jet U fades away, too. If not, we're gonna have to hunt even harder to get check airmen 'cause I think a lot of the current ones will say "screw it." If we're both in MSP (or anywhere else for that matter), I'll definately take ya up on the offer.
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Yes, it could get very ugly, unfortunately, at your company again. I wish y'all the best of luck. This crashpad is not the happiest place to be lately, with Mesaba and Pinnacle guys being the bulk of people here :( . I feel bad, being in a good mood most of the time, beer in hand, as they trod off to work miserable. A few are talking about getting out of aviation altogether. The guy that is in charge of the crashpad, former Indy guy, ended up at Champion, just left the industry. Most of them are Captains too.

For the most part, I'm here (MSP) every Wed., and I'm going home tonight, be back next Wed for another week of fun. I'm here every day except Sat, when I overnight in MDW. Just PM me when you're in town and I'll let you know if I'm here or not.
 
txpilot said:
Yes, it could get very ugly, unfortunately, at your company again. I wish y'all the best of luck. This crashpad is not the happiest place to be lately, with Mesaba and Pinnacle guys being the bulk of people here :( . I feel bad, being in a good mood most of the time, beer in hand, as they trod off to work miserable. A few are talking about getting out of aviation altogether. The guy that is in charge of the crashpad, former Indy guy, ended up at Champion, just left the industry. Most of them are Captains too.

For the most part, I'm here (MSP) every Wed., and I'm going home tonight, be back next Wed for another week of fun. I'm here every day except Sat, when I overnight in MDW. Just PM me when you're in town and I'll let you know if I'm here or not.
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Hey, I'm goin home too!!!!!!!!!!!! Ah, feels like forever until I have to be back!
 
The 135 guys are kidding themselves here. If there was no such regulation 135.243(c), their companies would be hiring low time, low paid guys as well.

classic...
 
wheelsup said:
The 135 guys are kidding themselves here. If there was no such regulation 135.243(c), their companies would be hiring low time, low paid guys as well.

classic...
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I dont think anybody is kidding themselves, and you are comparing apples to cucumbers.

135.243(c) is PIC requirements. There has to be some kind of minimum to be PIC for a commercial operation, whether its 121 or 135 doesnt matter. Its not exactly in the publics interest to allow 700 hour wonders to go around killing themselves and others flying single pilot IFR for hire. There are no mins for 135 SICs, just like there arent any for 121 SICs.
 
mtsu_av8er said:
If you VMC often, or have frequent engine failures - or, you're with an instructor who constantly throws engine "failures" at you, then you're definately on top of your game!

Otherwise, you're alot better at moving two throttle levers at the same time.
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I am one of those instructors that's always throwing engine failures at my students. :D

What I meant was most guys getting hired from ATP have a lot of ME dual given. I train guys for their multi private, instrument and Commercial. So we are always training worst case, engine failed, instruments out stuff. Having to teach Vmc and multi engine aerodynamics, as well as frequently demonstrate Vmc in the airplane and save our tail when the student screws up - I think I've got the whole flying airplanes with more then one engine thing down. :)
 
EatSleepFly said:
There has to be some kind of minimum to be PIC for a commercial operation, whether its 121 or 135 doesnt matter. Its not exactly in the publics interest to allow 700 hour wonders to go around killing themselves and others flying single pilot IFR for hire.
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You make a good point! However, for arguments sake I'll put forth this scenario:

1) CFI with 2000 TT, ATP mins, almost all SE piston time with a CMEL and 300 hours in a small piston twin (lets say baron). Typical training flights, with a few local cross countries thrown in every now and then. Almost all flights conducted in VFR conditions.
2) Military pilot, 200 in a military trainer and 1300 in a C-5, civ ATP mins, flown all around the world, in all sorts of weather.

Both pilots could "technically" hold left seat of a 737 at a US 121 carrier. Both pilots meet the FAA's requirement to be PIC in that aircraft, right (once they take the checkride, of course)? Now, honestly, that CFI won't make it thru unless they have some super human abilities, but that C-5 guy would probably have a good shot. The FAA says they both meet the mins to do the job.

That being said, the fact that you think a 700 hour pilot couldn't do the job that a 1200 hour pilot does is not valid IMO, especially when you throw the regulation card. I would bet that a significant portion of the people going into these entry level 135 gigs (most US operators) are of the #1 variety (or less!) just like the regionals. All of the people I personally know that went to Airnet, AMF, and RamAir were all CFI's prior to going there. Their experience is not much different than the freashly minted COM-MEL-INST student IMO.

TT ≠ experience, nor inability to do a job well, to an extent.
 
I can think of at least one shady cargo operator in TX that would sell the left seat in a Bonanza in a heartbeat. I have to agree, if there were no PIC requirement set forth by the feds, public interest or not, there are plenty of 135 ops that would sell that seat to someone that would pay for it.
 
wheelsup said:
All of the people I personally know that went to Airnet, AMF, and RamAir were all CFI's prior to going there. Their experience is not much different than the freashly minted COM-MEL-INST student IMO.
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Hmm, ok. You're saying the experience level of a 250 hour pilot with the ink still wet on their commercial is the same as a CFI with 1000 hours of dual given? I'm surprised that you think that. Of course you're entitled to your opinion- I think most would disagree.

TT ≠ experience, nor inability to do a job well, to an extent.
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Agreed.
 
EatSleepFly said:
Hmm, ok. You're saying the experience level of a 250 hour pilot with the ink still wet on their commercial is the same as a CFI with 1000 hours of dual given? I'm surprised that you think that. Of course you're entitled to your opinion- I think most would disagree.
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Yes - if the person who has their wet commercial flew all over, in all kinds of weather, while the CFI stayed in the southwest teaching out of the same uncontrolled airport he/she learned to fly out of, never ventured into any crazy airspace, and taught only private pilot students.

You mention 700 hour pilots killing themselves flying PIC in IFR. You have to be kidding yourself (I sound like one of these PFT guys now!) that you think 500 more hours in a C-152 flying patterns and limited xcty's in severe clear prepares you to fly single pilot hard IFR. Like I said, TT doesn't equate to experience.
 
wheelsup said:
Yes - if the person who has their wet commercial flew all over, in all kinds of weather, while the CFI stayed in the southwest teaching out of the same uncontrolled airport he/she learned to fly out of, never ventured into any crazy airspace, and taught only private pilot students.
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I know you wrote only tought private pilots but how often does that happen, I actually don't know anyone who only has there CFI.

You're assuming all flight instruction takes place in severe clear and in the southwest and that all CFI's do is fly 152's in the traffic pattern. I don't know if you ever did the CFI thing but if you did it sounds like you had a crappy time doing it.

When I flight instructed and started doing instrument stuff I was IFR as much as possible...most of my x/c time was IFR by the time I was done CFI'ing and most of my dual given is in 182RG's

By your same argument I can say that any person who flys an automated jet has no experience because 99% of the time the autopilots working...also flying above the weather and clouds doesn't count since youre in severe clear.

All your arguments require some pretty specific sets of circumstances which are all fairly rare. For some reason anyone who flys 135 has to have only flown VFR out of small airports. Everyone at my company has come on with right around 1500 hours some in excess of 3000, some with type ratings. I don't know of anyone who came in who didn't have at least a hundred hours of instrument time logged...usually more.

So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say yes. A standard CFI with 700-800hrs, 500dual given, several hundred hours 91 xc time operating into and out of all types of airspace who also has several hundred hours in high-performance complex time, possibly a good chunk of multi is better than a standard wet commercial pilot holder who has 250hrs TT 245 or so hours of VMC and 20 hours in a high-po/complex airplane.

while total time may not equate to skill, total time can't help but equate to experience.

Even pilots who fly the same run for years will still learn new things...will thier learning curve slow, surely, but will it stop? NO. We had a retired Eastern Airlines captian who flew for us up until recently and he was still learning things about ATC, the aircraft, new airspace etc.
 
Texasspilot said:
I know you wrote only tought private pilots but how often does that happen, I actually don't know anyone who only has there CFI.

You're assuming all flight instruction takes place in severe clear and in the southwest and that all CFI's do is fly 152's in the traffic pattern. I don't know if you ever did the CFI thing but if you did it sounds like you had a crappy time doing it.
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The majority of student pilots being taught is at the private pilot level. In fact, I had only taught private pilots before going to an 'academy style' school. I wasn't the only one. You might have the instrument or commercial student every now and then but they are pretty few and far between, at least where I was at.

When I flight instructed and started doing instrument stuff I was IFR as much as possible...most of my x/c time was IFR by the time I was done CFI'ing and most of my dual given is in 182RG's
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That's great for you, but certainly not the norm for CFI's. I'm sorry, as much as we would love to unless you are at a school with career students the only IFR xty's you do are IPC's.

By your same argument I can say that any person who flys an automated jet has no experience because 99% of the time the autopilots working...also flying above the weather and clouds doesn't count since youre in severe clear.
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Pretty much, but at least you hand fly the plane and experience other things on a day to day basis. You go to quite a few different airports etc. Honestly, I think I can say I had to make harder decisions as a CFI than flying a jet :).

All your arguments require some pretty specific sets of circumstances which are all fairly rare.
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That wasn't the point - the point is that CFI'ing primary students doesn't really help you do your job as 135 PIC much differently. That set of circumstances happens more than you think IMO!

For some reason anyone who flys 135 has to have only flown VFR out of small airports. Everyone at my company has come on with right around 1500 hours some in excess of 3000, some with type ratings. I don't know of anyone who came in who didn't have at least a hundred hours of instrument time logged...usually more.
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That is not the norm; hell flight express was SO DESPERATE for pilots last year they conducted "cattle calls" and anyone who showed up was trained. They hired down to 1000TT (VFR) because they couldn't get people in the seats. A hundred hours of instrument time? WOW! In 1500 dual given I had 37.

So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say yes. A standard CFI with 700-800hrs, 500dual given, several hundred hours 91 xc time operating into and out of all types of airspace who also has several hundred hours in high-performance complex time, possibly a good chunk of multi is better than a standard wet commercial pilot holder who has 250hrs TT 245 or so hours of VMC and 20 hours in a high-po/complex airplane.
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Seriously, 700-800 hours and several hundred high performance? Umm, no. Ain't gonna happen at MOST SCHOOLS. Career schools, yes, but your typical non-career oriented FBO might not even have a complex/twin! "Good chunk of multi"? Why do you think places like ramair, flx, etc. use the multi engine time carrot? Because people don't have a "good chunk of multi"...

I'm just pointing out the realities of CFI'ing that I experienced at 3 schools.

And yes, I would agree with the above, that someone as you described would definately would have seen more then the newly minted pilot. But the reality is that most CFI's, at their local FBO, won't see much complex/multi/actual/xcty before they move on. And what you do see in 12 months as a CFI could be learned in about a week on the job flying checks at night.
 
Well, all I have to say is the instructing I did prepared me very well for flying freight. Sorry you apparently had sucky CFI jobs. Good thing you got a job as a button pusher I guess. :cwm27::yar:
 
Uh, just to jump in here....

The students I had the FEWEST of were PPLs. Most of mine were CSEL and CMEL students with a bunch of CFI add-ons thrown in.

Plus, I don't know any CFIs that want to be something more that just fly patterns at the airport they were trained at. They always find some way to get more experience (like trading web design for Navajo time).

I agree that TT doesn't necessary equal experience, but I also don't know very many people with wet ink on their certs that have done a wide range of experience. Most of the cases I've heard of, people get their time in the local area or by taking short cross countries with friends. The exception are some of the academies, but the CFIs there also get a more varied experience level.
 
EatSleepFly said:
Well, all I have to say is the instructing I did prepared me very well for flying freight. Sorry you apparently had sucky CFI jobs. Good thing you got a job as a button pusher I guess. :cwm27::yar:
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OK whatever helps you sleep at night (or day) ;)

no sucky (they could've been worse for sure) jobs for me, but I know people that it happened to :)
 
For what it is worth... when I showed up for training at Ram there were five of us. I was the only one who made it through my class. There are plenty of people who make it to 1200 hours that probably shouldn't be flying a plane. Then there are some (like myself) that have the 1200 total time, but don't have ANY multi time. Spending 5 months with RAM---got a few hundred hours of multi time, and polished up some IFR skills. Now its off to Air Wisconsin to be a "button pusher."

When all is said and done.... airlines are what I've wanted to do from the start. Instead of going to ATP/Flight Safety/Ari-Ben I took the long route and still ended up getting the job. THE DIFFERENCE is... that unlike a guy I met at a recent interview, if something happens I can always go back to freight or instructing. The 400 hour pilot with 300 hours of multi-engine time is furloughed, working on his CFI, and trying to get back in the saddle after spending 35k for Flt. Safety's Direct Track program.

Everyone takes a different road for a different reason and brings something unique to the table. Just my two cents though.
 
CaptChris said:
The 400 hour pilot with 300 hours of multi-engine time is furloughed, working on his CFI, and trying to get back in the saddle after spending 35k for Flt. Safety's Direct Track program.
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And THAT is exactly why I didn't do the PACE program.
 
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