Canadian ATC facepalm moment....

Krystal

Krystal

Dispatch Betty
Youd think working the night shift would be easy..... I deal only with our late evening departure bank....all west bound departures with most flights usually blocked in by 1 am. Unfortunately that means I have to deal with Canada. (Every night Ive worked this month, Ive had SOME issue with one of my Candian arrivals, bleh)

My captain going to YXE last night was a baby captain. His first 121 PIC gig and he was only about 25 hours in. He was going to be routing around thunderstorms. He had also never flown to Canada as PIC. Halfway through his flight, storms start filling in so I try to contact him to tell him about it and wouldnt you know it, his ACARS goes NO COM overr northern ND and he was out of range of the DL radio repeaters. Finally get him back north o the border and was able to update his burns for his new route. Crisis averted. He punches through the wx and continues on his merry way, landing safely. Or so I thought.

An hour later, Captain calls into DX on SKype to tell me about the crap storm of an arrival that Center gave him. YXE tower closes ater 11 pm, I believe so its center that gives vectors for the arrival. Before he took off, we talked about what runway he was going to be using because he was high mins and it was IFR. Sustained winds made 27 marginal but the gust made it illegal so 09 was presumed.

On arrival, though, ATC set him up for 27 despite the marginal tailwind. He was skeptical but went for it. He was on final, however, when he heard a kingair depart on 09. He ended up climbing out and overflying the aiport at 3100.' circling back and shooting the approach to 09. This captain felt like he was flying blind with no help from ATC and from the sounds o it, YXE doesnt really have published procedures for this sort of thing. Now Im no pilot, but from what I understand, if you are in IFR, you cant just take off without talking to center...So atc knew about the Kingair most likely (or didnt they?) Are you telling me that they cleared a plane to take off from a runway at the same time they were clearing another plane to land on the backcourse? Is this a routine procedure or was the controller drinking too much maple syrup? Or was it just a fledgling captain learning the ropes of Canadian airspace?

I didnt really know what advice to give him so I referred him FOQA, ASAP and the chief.

Can someone enlighten me on what might have happened?
 
well if the Kingair was private. they could of took off "VFR" and tried to pick up there IFR in the air. I dont know if Canada rules allow that but its quite common place in the States for GA aircraft.
 
yeah, ATC probably had nothing to do with the KA. non towered airports are one in one out for IFR.

Also, I dont know what the wx was, but just because your guy had to shoot an approach doesnt mean that the king air couldnt be VFR

Also also, i wouldnt make a big deal about it, because it really isnt a big deal. Just a break down in communication.
 
Canada's ATC system is just as good (and sometimes, bad) as anything I've dealt with in the US. Almost no difference, except that they say "roger" after everything. :) And I don't know why this rubs me the wrong way, but do you guys really talk about new upgrades as "Baby Captains"?

King Air was more than likely VFR, and not under ATC control.

Paging canadian_atc
 
CYXE 270900Z 19012G19KT 15SM FEW050 12/09 A2944 RMK SC1 SLP976 DENSITY ALT 2200FT
CYXE 270800Z 21019KT 15SM FEW050 14/10 A2946 RMK SC1 SLP981 DENSITY ALT 2400FT
CYXE 270700Z 22015G23KT 15SM SCT050 15/11 A2947 RMK SC4 SLP982 DENSITY ALT 2500FT
CYXE 270600Z 18012KT 15SM BKN018 16/15 A2945 RMK SC7 SLP974 DENSITY ALT 2700FT
CYXE 270500Z 18009KT 15SM FEW040 SCT300 15/14 A2945 RMK SC2CI2 SLP974 DENSITY ALT 2500FT
CYXE 270400Z 22006KT 15SM FEW020 BKN300 16/15 A2945 RMK SC2CI4 SLP976 DENSITY ALT 2700FT
CYXE 270300Z 09012G17KT 15SM FEW010 BKN130 18/15 A2938 RMK SF1AC6 SLP951 DENSITY ALT 2900FT
Click to expand...

Not sure what time the situation you dealt with occurred, but with the exception of the 0600 report, I would have taken off VFR as well if I were flying the King Air. As to why the two aircraft weren't communicating on CTAF, who knows. When I'm pilot flying, I usually tune up and monitor the CTAF frequency when we're about 10-15 minutes out of a non-towered airport. The non-flying pilot is busy enough with ATC and checklists, so I don't expect him to be listening. It gives me a "big picture", and I can brief the non-flying pilot on what I'm hearing/have heard when we start the approach.
 
Sounds like the KA thought it was technically VMC, hit the air and realized it wasn't. You'd have to hold a gun to a controller's head to get them to release an opposite direction departure with an arrival inbound at an uncontrolled airport.

Also, if the field is uncontrolled, why wouldn't the CA ask for the runway with the headwind? Its one in one out. It isn't rocket science. I mean this sarcastically, but land on a taxiway for all I care. The airport is on lockdown until you cancel. I've shut down the final/departures at airports due to arrivals at a totally unrelated field that just barely conflict with the MA/Final/departures. I sincerely doubt it was ATC up north.

It'd be great if everyone in this industry could see from eachother's perspective. There is so much disconnect it is actually pretty sad. Just thinking about the scenario I'd easily trade a DX tour for a TRACON tour. Seriously, I'd love the see the time lag between the logic in the filing and implementation (not that it isn't 99% of the time a great job). Still, I've seen LAX via JFK departing the Mid West before. I mean the DX, clearance, ground and local and both pilots missed the mark on that one. Talk about some ragged Swiss cheese.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Not sure what time the situation you dealt with occurred, but with the exception of the 0600 report, I would have taken off VFR as well if I were flying the King Air. As to why the two aircraft weren't communicating on CTAF, who knows. When I'm pilot flying, I usually tune up and monitor the CTAF frequency when we're about 10-15 minutes out of a non-towered airport. The non-flying pilot is busy enough with ATC and checklists, so I don't expect him to be listening. It gives me a "big picture", and I can brief the non-flying pilot on what I'm hearing/have heard when we start the approach.
Click to expand...

He landed in the 0600 hour.
 
It's also technically legal to depart IFR without a clearance (at least in the US). You just can't enter controlled airspace. Would I do it? Hell no. But is it legal? By reading of the FARs, it is. Couldn't even begin to talk in depth about Cannuckistani regulations...suffice it to say that when I'm up that way I file an IFR flight plan (and receive a clearance) under any and all circumstances before any wheels even get light.
 
If the pilot was unable to get a IFR clearance on the ground because of conflicting traffic on the approach for the other runway he can elect to take off VFR and pick up the clearance in the air from center. Flight service may/would of have told the King air that center said he was unable to depart off that runway with a IFR clearence till your flight landed (one in one out rule) so considering the VFR weather the KA decided to depart VFR and pick er up in the air.

Center would of known about this because if he was filed IFR, he would of had to been approved (This would mostly likely been requested thru YXE Radio) for the VFR departure to pick up the IFR clearance in the air. Thats how i've done it many times flying in Canada
 
Boris Badenov said:
It's also technically legal to depart IFR without a clearance (at least in the US). You just can't enter controlled airspace. Would I do it? Hell no. But is it legal? By reading of the FARs, it is. Couldn't even begin to talk in depth about Cannuckistani regulations...suffice it to say that when I'm up that way I file an IFR flight plan (and receive a clearance) under any and all circumstances before any wheels even get light.
Click to expand...

Yah, Im in that school of thought. Id want everyone to know where I am and where Im going.
 
Krystal said:
Yah, Im in that school of thought. Id want everyone to know where I am and where Im going.
Click to expand...

Well, up there, for sure. Down here, I depart VFR all the time, which it sort of sounds like might be what happened in this case. Without knowing the particulars, it sounds like a "no harm no foul" situation to me. KA guy took off VFR and maintained the requisite clearances, Airline guy heard him and didn't want to pop out of the clouds to see a KA coming his way. Airline dude excercised his Judgment, landed safely, case closed. :)
 
Boris Badenov said:
Well, up there, for sure. Down here, I depart VFR all the time, which it sort of sounds like might be what happened in this case. Without knowing the particulars, it sounds like a "no harm no foul" situation to me. KA guy took off VFR and maintained the requisite clearances, Airline guy heard him and didn't want to pop out of the clouds to see a KA coming his way. Airline dude excercised his Judgment, landed safely, case closed. :)
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It would have been interesting to have been on the jumpseat for that one. I only have a vague picture...would have been nice to hear the radio transmissions and watched how they handled it.
 
It's not like they'd be departing blind, YXE Flight service (Radio) would be giving traffic advisories to the KA, and to your plane once he was on frequency, Center would of also (Generally) advised your guy of departing VFR traffic off runway XX with it's direction of flight.
 
Krystal said:
Youd think working the night shift would be easy..... I deal only with our late evening departure bank....all west bound departures with most flights usually blocked in by 1 am. Unfortunately that means I have to deal with Canada. (Every night Ive worked this month, Ive had SOME issue with one of my Candian arrivals, bleh)

My captain going to YXE last night was a baby captain. His first 121 PIC gig and he was only about 25 hours in. He was going to be routing around thunderstorms. He had also never flown to Canada as PIC. Halfway through his flight, storms start filling in so I try to contact him to tell him about it and wouldnt you know it, his ACARS goes NO COM overr northern ND and he was out of range of the DL radio repeaters. Finally get him back north o the border and was able to update his burns for his new route. Crisis averted. He punches through the wx and continues on his merry way, landing safely. Or so I thought.

An hour later, Captain calls into DX on SKype to tell me about the crap storm of an arrival that Center gave him. YXE tower closes ater 11 pm, I believe so its center that gives vectors for the arrival. Before he took off, we talked about what runway he was going to be using because he was high mins and it was IFR. Sustained winds made 27 marginal but the gust made it illegal so 09 was presumed.

On arrival, though, ATC set him up for 27 despite the marginal tailwind. He was skeptical but went for it. He was on final, however, when he heard a kingair depart on 09. He ended up climbing out and overflying the aiport at 3100.' circling back and shooting the approach to 09. This captain felt like he was flying blind with no help from ATC and from the sounds o it, YXE doesnt really have published procedures for this sort of thing. Now Im no pilot, but from what I understand, if you are in IFR, you cant just take off without talking to center...So atc knew about the Kingair most likely (or didnt they?) Are you telling me that they cleared a plane to take off from a runway at the same time they were clearing another plane to land on the backcourse? Is this a routine procedure or was the controller drinking too much maple syrup? Or was it just a fledgling captain learning the ropes of Canadian airspace?

I didnt really know what advice to give him so I referred him FOQA, ASAP and the chief.

Can someone enlighten me on what might have happened?
Click to expand...

After reading the replies, I'm still a bit confused: It's the crew's responsibility to deal with traffic, winds, and ATC issues related to the traffic; did it cause you any real issues as the dispatcher, or make your night harder? Why did said "baby captain" even tell you about it, or care?
 
dasleben said:
After reading the replies, I'm still a bit confused: It's the crew's responsibility to deal with traffic, winds, and ATC issues related to the traffic; did it cause you any real issues as the dispatcher, or make your night harder? Why did said "baby captain" even tell you about it, or care?
Click to expand...

That's the part I didn't get. I'm all for being in contact with a dispatcher prior to (and during) a flight to work out upcoming issues, but skyping in with an after action report? Eh... not my sort of thing. I'll send a "thanks! we made it!" acars once we get to the gate if the situation warranted it, but any issues that require following up with a dispatcher are most likely negative and would go the route of an ops report.
 
BobDDuck said:
That's the part I didn't get. I'm all for being in contact with a dispatcher prior to (and during) a flight to work out upcoming issues, but skyping in with an after action report? Eh... not my sort of thing. I'll send a "thanks! we made it!" acars once we get to the gate if the situation warranted it, but any issues that require following up with a dispatcher are most likely negative and would go the route of an ops report.
Click to expand...

Yeah, in my 5 years of doing this (with many issues more pressing than the situation described) not once have I had a captain say "lemme call dispatch and tell them about that!"

This is normal pilot stuff into any uncontrolled field. Find out that an airplane is departing opposite direction, if you're the one trying go get in with the tailwind, its probably on you to go around and shoot the approach from the correct side. Especially not a big deal seeing that the weather was good enough to come around visually.
 
We only have fake dispatchers where I work, but I can't imagine bothering them with the little picayune details of my job. They have all kinds of crap to deal with themselves...why would I add to it with my War Stories?

Did we crash? No. Are we where we're supposed to be? Yes. *click*
 
Krystal said:
Youd think working the night shift would be easy..... I deal only with our late evening departure bank....all west bound departures with most flights usually blocked in by 1 am. Unfortunately that means I have to deal with Canada. (Every night Ive worked this month, Ive had SOME issue with one of my Candian arrivals, bleh)

My captain going to YXE last night was a baby captain. His first 121 PIC gig and he was only about 25 hours in. He was going to be routing around thunderstorms. He had also never flown to Canada as PIC. Halfway through his flight, storms start filling in so I try to contact him to tell him about it and wouldnt you know it, his ACARS goes NO COM overr northern ND and he was out of range of the DL radio repeaters. Finally get him back north o the border and was able to update his burns for his new route. Crisis averted. He punches through the wx and continues on his merry way, landing safely. Or so I thought.

An hour later, Captain calls into DX on SKype to tell me about the crap storm of an arrival that Center gave him. YXE tower closes ater 11 pm, I believe so its center that gives vectors for the arrival. Before he took off, we talked about what runway he was going to be using because he was high mins and it was IFR. Sustained winds made 27 marginal but the gust made it illegal so 09 was presumed.

On arrival, though, ATC set him up for 27 despite the marginal tailwind. He was skeptical but went for it. He was on final, however, when he heard a kingair depart on 09. He ended up climbing out and overflying the aiport at 3100.' circling back and shooting the approach to 09. This captain felt like he was flying blind with no help from ATC and from the sounds o it, YXE doesnt really have published procedures for this sort of thing. Now Im no pilot, but from what I understand, if you are in IFR, you cant just take off without talking to center...So atc knew about the Kingair most likely (or didnt they?) Are you telling me that they cleared a plane to take off from a runway at the same time they were clearing another plane to land on the backcourse? Is this a routine procedure or was the controller drinking too much maple syrup? Or was it just a fledgling captain learning the ropes of Canadian airspace?

I didnt really know what advice to give him so I referred him FOQA, ASAP and the chief.

Can someone enlighten me on what might have happened?
Click to expand...

Saskatoon after the tower closes is weird.

The people in the tower are the same people that were there at 22:59, and if I remember correctly it's the same tower frequency like an American CTAF type thing after the tower is closed, but they are advisory only. They'll read you the clearance they got from Winnipeg Center or whoever the center is there, but they can't really tell you what to do. They just tell you the winds and altimeter setting. I remember a few times though, that they'll tell you where other traffic is on the airport when you call. "Use caution a KingAir is taxiing through the ramp towards runway 27" etc.

I can't even imagine this happening in the USA because I could just see some lawsuit where something happens and a lawyer makes the case that if a qualified air traffic controller is standing in the control tower cab on duty, they ought to be controlling traffic while they're there instead of doing nothing but reading clearances and issuing the current wind and barometer setting to airplanes that call in.

Anyway, the part with the plane on final happened because the advisory people in the tower are not talking to center. They evidently only call center to get a clearance for an aircraft. So when the flight switched over on final approach for 27 the King Air wouldn't have even known they were inbound and the controller in the tower with no controlling authority might not have known either.

It's a bizarre setup. If they're up there, why not have the tower be open? Not sure what the story is behind that.
 
Just was reminded of a nice evening flight I did up there a few years ago...same time of year, took off from MSP at 21:00 and flew for 2+ hours and of course up in Saskatoon, it was still dusk when we landed at 23:00. No way to see the northern lights with an orange sky just before midnight!
 
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