Can you still shoot the approach?

RetiredATLATC

RetiredATLATC

Well-Known Member
Had a situation tonight with a C130 into one of our northern Iraq airports report to me that he was not receiving the DME on an ILS/DME approach.

The question is, could I have still assigned an ILS approach, just like I'd issue a LOC apch if the glideslope was out, (the appch plate said nothing about DME being required) to the aircraft, or is the DME required for the approach?

I had the tower query the previous arrival and he received the DME without a problem, so my thought was acft equip issue, but wanted to know the answer.

Thanks

Jonny Baghdad ;)
 
A80TRACON said:
Had a situation tonight with a C130 into one of our northern Iraq airports report to me that he was not receiving the DME on an ILS/DME approach.

The question is, could I have still assigned an ILS approach, just like I'd issue a LOC apch if the glideslope was out, (the appch plate said nothing about DME being required) to the aircraft, or is the DME required for the approach?

I had the tower query the previous arrival and he received the DME without a problem, so my thought was acft equip issue, but wanted to know the answer.

Thanks

Jonny Baghdad ;)
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If DME is in the procedure name, it's required for the full procedure. often all it really is is part of the own nav transitions or identifying the missed approach holding fix, plus you should be able to substitute a radar fix for DME.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I do too except that the primary reason for GPS is military stuff.

@Soku39
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"Military stuff" means the ability to navigate in bad-guy land without the need for terrestrial radio navigation, and -- lately -- the ability to place a bomb precisely on the bad guys' back porch.

"Military stuff" does not mean instrument approaches. The F-15E and T-38C weren't even able to file /G or any of the related RNAV-capable conditions, much less being able to fly a GPS approach. Was the equipment theoretically capable of it? Most definitely. Military regs wouldn't allow it, regardless.
 
First, Legacy C-130s can not shoot GPS approaches. I really don't think J models can either.

Second flying in the USAF is a lot more regs based than common sense based, so if it says ILS/DME on the approach and the DME went out, I would not be surprised if they refused the approach.

For all I know they forgot to select the X or Y band on the TACAN, thus not receiving the DME, who knows. As for what else you could assign him, that depends on the approaches and facilities available into said airfield.
 
My almost brand new, but is state-of-the-art avionics equipped Blackhawk is a /A. It's a POS when it comes to IFR capabilities, but its pretty slick when we use it for other applications.

Like @Hacker15e said, its about perspective.
 
No idea about international, but Midlife's post from a few years ago addresses this scenario pretty well.

Source: Terps Volume 1, Chapter 1, Paragraph 161(a) on page 29 of this document.

MidlifeFlyer said:
From the TERPS manual:

==============================
ILS procedures do not require DME to fly the final approach, even if a DME fix has been substituted for one of the marker beacons, therefore, ILS procedures shall not be named ILS/DME. If a procedure requires DME to fly the final approach, the suffix “DME” shall be added; e.g., LOC/DME RWY (number). A chart shall be noted to indicate RADAR is required for approach minima. When a LOC procedure is published on an ILS chart, it is a combined procedure. When procedures are combined, the word “or” shall indicate either type of equipment may be be used to execute the final approach; e.g., ILS or LOC/DME, ILS or TACAN, VOR/DME or TACAN,
==============================

That does not mean there will never be an ILS approach that requires DME. There could always be something special that needs to be done to tweak a particular approach. Just that the typical ILS does not and the "DME" in an "ILS or LOC/DME" approach refers only to the LOC-only approach, not the ILS.
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My thinking is you as atc had no notification dme was out. No alarm and the previous aircraft had no issues. I'd think you give approach clearance based on your best knowledge of equipment status and let the pilot decide if he can accept the approach. If he has an issue in any way he needs to ask for something else.
 
genot said:
I just did a spit take looking at JC on my phone while on the couch watching House Hunters with my wife. That's me on the tape. Worst ASR ever given.
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Wait. What?!?!
That was epic. If you were the approach controller, even more epic. If that's what happened in real time (no editing) you're the man. Even with editing you're the man. Seriously, that was some quick thinking/controlling. If that was you at the end in the picture receiving an award you more than deserve it. Excellent job.
 
That's my go to example of ATC going the extra mile in tough circumstances.

Did they ever work out why they couldn't get 117.4?

Alex.
 
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