Can an SIC log PIC with a type rating?

Snow

'Not a new member'
Under 121 regulations can the SIC (First Officer) log PIC when controlling the aircraft if he has a type rating in that aircraft? (not SIC restricted)

Thanks
 

A300Capt

Freight Dawg
Under 121 regulations can the SIC (First Officer) log PIC when controlling the aircraft if he has a type rating in that aircraft? (not SIC restricted)

Thanks
No. There's only one PIC and that's the person who is listed on the flight release as the Capt and who signed the aircraft logbook.
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
Yes, he can log it. It is essentially worthless in the 121 world from my understanding, but according to 61.51 it is legitimate, loggable time based on being the "sole manipulator of the controls" clause.

Couple of references:

http://www.jet-jobs.com/articles/loggingpic.html

http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=1#2

http://www.jet-jobs.com/articles/pic.html

http://www.jet-jobs.com/articles/loggingpic.html

Allow me to steal some quotes from the AIR, Inc article:
FAR Part 61:51 deals with pilot logbooks and cites the instances in which pilots can log pilot-in-command flight time. These are:

only that flight time during which [the] pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, OR

when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft, OR

when acting as pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required (by type certification or flight regulations).

Additionally, airline transport pilots and certificated instructor pilots may log as pilot-in-command time that flight time during which they act as a pilot-in-command or instructor, respectively.

Note the FAA's intent in defining pilot-in-command time, and in requiring pilots to record PIC in their logbooks, is to allow pilots to document aeronautical training and experience used to obtain specific certificates or ratings. For instance, airmen need 100 hours of pilot-in-command time to obtain a Commercial certificate, and 250 hours PIC for the Airline Transport Pilot certificate. Such flight time must be logged and presented as evidence in qualifying for these certificates. The FAA never set out to establish or document airline hiring criteria.


Remember the five specific instances in which FAR Part 61:51 allows pilots to log PIC time: as sole manipulator of the controls, as sole aircraft occupant, when acting as pilot-in-command of a mandated multi-pilot aircraft, as an ATP acting as pilot-in-command, or as an instructor when giving instruction. This section of the FAR's seems to allow for the possibility that two pilots in the same aircraft can be logging PIC time simultaneously. Example: a commuter captain (the designated PIC) monitoring the radios while his copilot flies the airplane (sole manipulator of the controls).

...

The good news here is the FAA seems to be letting an awful lot of PIC time build up in the logbooks of our nation's military pilots. Almost everybody gets to log some time as PIC -- copilots, first pilots aircraft commanders, instructors, etc. The bad news is, the airlines aren't buying it. Let us explain.

In most cases, when the airlines talk about PIC flight time, what they really mean is captain flight time, the kind you get when you sit in the left seat, sign for the aircraft, make all the final decisions and wear four bars on your shoulder. In FAA parlance this is "designated pilot-in-command" time, and the military calls it "aircraft commander" time. This definition of PIC refers to who you are in the cockpit, not what you're doing with the controls.

Some airline applications are very clear about this when asking you to list your PIC and SIC hours. Look at UPS' and TWA's application and you'll see they define PIC as quoted from FAR 61:51.

United Airlines' application states: "PIC means you were totally responsible for aircraft and crew." Alaska's States "PIC means designated 'In Command' in flight". America West's flight time grid has separate headings for Captain and First Officer with the added instruction that Captain time is when you were assigned and designated PIC by the operator or owner of the airplane. American Airline's headings are Aircraft Commander, Captain or PIC, and Copilot. Clearly, these airlines are not using the "sole manipulator" criteria from FAR Part 61 to define PIC time.

Other airline applications are more ambiguous. FedEx and Northwest simply ask for PIC and SIC. Southwest Airlines uses familiar Navy terms: "1st Pilot" and "Copilot." With so many definitions and usages floating around, it's hardly surprising that so many pilots are confused when trying to reconcile their military flight records, pilot logbooks, and airline job applications. If they're concerned about discrepancies, they should be; no pilot wants to get in the hot seat at an interview while trying to explain why his flying hours don't seem to add up. Perhaps in the future the interested parties -- the FAA, the military services and the airlines -- can agree on common terms and definitions for logging flight time and experience.

...

Copyright ©1997 AIR, Inc. All rights reserved.
I log the "sole manipulator" PIC time in a separate column, labeled "61 PIC". There are, in spite of what many (most?) people here will tell you, companies out there that will accept this as legitimate PIC time for their purposes. Possibly not in the 121 world, but i know that there are some in other areas of aviation. Don't short change yourselves, but understand the different types of PIC time, and be straight up when using those numbers with employers and you'll be fine.

(edit to add: Actually the original question has no correct answer because the 121 regulations do not say anything about what can or cannot be logged as PIC, they are only concerned with who can act as PIC. Different animals entirely...unfortunately.)
 

minitour

New Member
Yes. They can. Log PIC. Not necessarily ACT as PIC (that would require the training and checking required by part 121 in addition to the type).

The Chief Counsel put out a decision on this one. I was screwing around on the FAA's website last week and stumbled upon it. Pretty easy to find.

-mini
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
No. There's only one PIC and that's the person who is listed on the flight release as the Capt and who signed the aircraft logbook.
Logging for FAA certificate, rating, and other qualification purposes is not a Part 121 issue. Logging flight time for those purposes iis strictly a 61.51 issue under which the answer is clearly yes. Rated in the aircraft+sole manipulator of the flight controls = "logged" PIC.

But given the FAA's and the practical requirements to act even as SIC in a 121 operation, is it relevant (I don't know the answer - I haven't bothered to read that far in the regs)?

...and I think this is the Chief Counsel opinion mini was referring to: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...terpretations/data/interps/1999/Carpenter.rtf It's the second part; the first part is about a non-flying SIC logging instrument time.
 

Polar742

All the responsibility none of the authority
Again, as this has been hashed before, this seems to be an academic vaccuum argument.

A few things to consider:

1) How can a person be a "sole manipulator" in a crewed airplane? Does that mean they fly and operate the flaps and gear?

2) What worth would this "PIC" time have? I'm a PIC-rated FO. My "cruise pilot", "IRO" or whatever time, where I'm designated as the PIC will (haven't done OE yet ;)) be designated as IRO time in a log book, but not under PIC.

3) What job (which is why, I assume, we all care about logging this time) will look at you, a SIC with half your time logged at PIC, and use that PIC time for an application toward their requirements? Again, I'm not saying there aren't any, but I've yet to see one. Even the foreign contracts for PIC designate that relief pilot time isn't counted.
 

minitour

New Member
1) How can a person be a "sole manipulator" in a crewed airplane? Does that mean they fly and operate the flaps and gear?
It would appear the chief counsel doesn't seem to care about secondary flight controls. Primary flight controls (ailerons, elevator/stabilator and rudder) seem to be the focus of "sole manipulator".

2) What worth would this "PIC" time have?
Make Mr. Insurance happy.

3) What job (which is why, I assume, we all care about logging this time) will look at you, a SIC with half your time logged at PIC, and use that PIC time for an application toward their requirements?
Again, it's going to make a lot of insurance companies happy. Will you be able to use just that time to get hired? Hard to say. If you have over their requirements but you have additional time, the insurance companies can give you a break.

Is that the main reason? No. But it's a damn good place to start.

As for logging time. Log what's legal and let the person hiring you decide what they want to see.

-mini
 

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
Didn't he ask under 121 regulations?

I'd love to see in an interview where the applicant has hundreds of hours logged as a PIC in the mighty CRJ 200 having never been a Captain.

Pretty sure he'd be laughed out of the interview.
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
Didn't he ask under 121 regulations?

I'd love to see in an interview where the applicant has hundreds of hours logged as a PIC in the mighty CRJ 200 having never been a Captain.

Pretty sure he'd be laughed out of the interview.
There is nothing in the 121 regulations about logging PIC time. Only covered in 61.51. See previous posts for clarification. :)
 

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
There is nothing in the 121 regulations about logging PIC time. Only covered in 61.51. See previous posts for clarification. :)
I figured that, but I still stand my ground saying he/she would be laughed out of an interview.

A pilot logging PIC and not acting PIC are completely different like others have said here. He/she hasn't had to make decisions, worry about his certs, and have complete responsibility before.

Anyone can get insurance, just depends how much the boss is willing to pay to have the guy he wants.
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
I figured that, but I still stand my ground saying he/she would be laughed out of an interview.
Ah, then you are agreeing with our previous posts then. It sounded like you disagreed with us when we all (well, many of us anyway) said that while it is perfectly legal to log PIC in that situation (nothing in part 121 says it isn't), it would be wise to keep the time separate for places like the airlines that don't recognize that time for their purposes.

I kind of thought we might be on the same page, but the tone of your first post made it sound like you disagreed with what others were saying. Just trying to clarify. :)
 
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