'Not a new member'
Under 121 regulations can the SIC (First Officer) log PIC when controlling the aircraft if he has a type rating in that aircraft? (not SIC restricted)
No. There's only one PIC and that's the person who is listed on the flight release as the Capt and who signed the aircraft logbook.Under 121 regulations can the SIC (First Officer) log PIC when controlling the aircraft if he has a type rating in that aircraft? (not SIC restricted)
I log the "sole manipulator" PIC time in a separate column, labeled "61 PIC". There are, in spite of what many (most?) people here will tell you, companies out there that will accept this as legitimate PIC time for their purposes. Possibly not in the 121 world, but i know that there are some in other areas of aviation. Don't short change yourselves, but understand the different types of PIC time, and be straight up when using those numbers with employers and you'll be fine.FAR Part 61:51 deals with pilot logbooks and cites the instances in which pilots can log pilot-in-command flight time. These are:
only that flight time during which [the] pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, OR
when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft, OR
when acting as pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required (by type certification or flight regulations).
Additionally, airline transport pilots and certificated instructor pilots may log as pilot-in-command time that flight time during which they act as a pilot-in-command or instructor, respectively.
Note the FAA's intent in defining pilot-in-command time, and in requiring pilots to record PIC in their logbooks, is to allow pilots to document aeronautical training and experience used to obtain specific certificates or ratings. For instance, airmen need 100 hours of pilot-in-command time to obtain a Commercial certificate, and 250 hours PIC for the Airline Transport Pilot certificate. Such flight time must be logged and presented as evidence in qualifying for these certificates. The FAA never set out to establish or document airline hiring criteria.
Remember the five specific instances in which FAR Part 61:51 allows pilots to log PIC time: as sole manipulator of the controls, as sole aircraft occupant, when acting as pilot-in-command of a mandated multi-pilot aircraft, as an ATP acting as pilot-in-command, or as an instructor when giving instruction. This section of the FAR's seems to allow for the possibility that two pilots in the same aircraft can be logging PIC time simultaneously. Example: a commuter captain (the designated PIC) monitoring the radios while his copilot flies the airplane (sole manipulator of the controls).
The good news here is the FAA seems to be letting an awful lot of PIC time build up in the logbooks of our nation's military pilots. Almost everybody gets to log some time as PIC -- copilots, first pilots aircraft commanders, instructors, etc. The bad news is, the airlines aren't buying it. Let us explain.
In most cases, when the airlines talk about PIC flight time, what they really mean is captain flight time, the kind you get when you sit in the left seat, sign for the aircraft, make all the final decisions and wear four bars on your shoulder. In FAA parlance this is "designated pilot-in-command" time, and the military calls it "aircraft commander" time. This definition of PIC refers to who you are in the cockpit, not what you're doing with the controls.
Some airline applications are very clear about this when asking you to list your PIC and SIC hours. Look at UPS' and TWA's application and you'll see they define PIC as quoted from FAR 61:51.
United Airlines' application states: "PIC means you were totally responsible for aircraft and crew." Alaska's States "PIC means designated 'In Command' in flight". America West's flight time grid has separate headings for Captain and First Officer with the added instruction that Captain time is when you were assigned and designated PIC by the operator or owner of the airplane. American Airline's headings are Aircraft Commander, Captain or PIC, and Copilot. Clearly, these airlines are not using the "sole manipulator" criteria from FAR Part 61 to define PIC time.
Other airline applications are more ambiguous. FedEx and Northwest simply ask for PIC and SIC. Southwest Airlines uses familiar Navy terms: "1st Pilot" and "Copilot." With so many definitions and usages floating around, it's hardly surprising that so many pilots are confused when trying to reconcile their military flight records, pilot logbooks, and airline job applications. If they're concerned about discrepancies, they should be; no pilot wants to get in the hot seat at an interview while trying to explain why his flying hours don't seem to add up. Perhaps in the future the interested parties -- the FAA, the military services and the airlines -- can agree on common terms and definitions for logging flight time and experience.
Copyright ©1997 AIR, Inc. All rights reserved.
Logging for FAA certificate, rating, and other qualification purposes is not a Part 121 issue. Logging flight time for those purposes iis strictly a 61.51 issue under which the answer is clearly yes. Rated in the aircraft+sole manipulator of the flight controls = "logged" PIC.No. There's only one PIC and that's the person who is listed on the flight release as the Capt and who signed the aircraft logbook.
It would appear the chief counsel doesn't seem to care about secondary flight controls. Primary flight controls (ailerons, elevator/stabilator and rudder) seem to be the focus of "sole manipulator".1) How can a person be a "sole manipulator" in a crewed airplane? Does that mean they fly and operate the flaps and gear?
Make Mr. Insurance happy.2) What worth would this "PIC" time have?
Again, it's going to make a lot of insurance companies happy. Will you be able to use just that time to get hired? Hard to say. If you have over their requirements but you have additional time, the insurance companies can give you a break.3) What job (which is why, I assume, we all care about logging this time) will look at you, a SIC with half your time logged at PIC, and use that PIC time for an application toward their requirements?
There is nothing in the 121 regulations about logging PIC time. Only covered in 61.51. See previous posts for clarification.Didn't he ask under 121 regulations?
I'd love to see in an interview where the applicant has hundreds of hours logged as a PIC in the mighty CRJ 200 having never been a Captain.
Pretty sure he'd be laughed out of the interview.
I figured that, but I still stand my ground saying he/she would be laughed out of an interview.There is nothing in the 121 regulations about logging PIC time. Only covered in 61.51. See previous posts for clarification.
Ah, then you are agreeing with our previous posts then. It sounded like you disagreed with us when we all (well, many of us anyway) said that while it is perfectly legal to log PIC in that situation (nothing in part 121 says it isn't), it would be wise to keep the time separate for places like the airlines that don't recognize that time for their purposes.I figured that, but I still stand my ground saying he/she would be laughed out of an interview.