Can an IPC count as a BFR if separate endorsement was done?

swisspilot

swisspilot

Well-Known Member
I have a validation of my FAA license here where I'm currently flying. In order to keep my validation valid my FAA license has to be valid also, since the FAA license has no expiration date they use the BFR for VFR privileges and an IPC for IFR privileges.

I have combined both, back in the US in one flight, now I would like to know if that's ok, my BFR wasn't expired but since I was at it I got that endorsement done too, so I have two separate endorsement.

The authorities here are gonna check with the FAA, I know it makes no sense as they don't keep a record of the endorsement, but just wanna make sure if it was ok to combine IPC and BFR.

I technically have a full conversion now, so having a current FAA would not matter, but for some god sake reason they still wanna see a current BFR and IPC.

Alex
 
I would say the answer is no. 61.56 states that a flight review is recieving instruction, not a "proficiency check". An IPC is essentially a condensed ir checkride with a cfii, check airman or dpe, it does not say training, and the person conducting it cannot log it for you or themself as instruction. So an IPC does not satisfy the requirement for the flight review that states you must recieve and log instruction. Also, think of it this way, an IPC is specifically for instrument priveleges for the RATING on your airman certificate, whereas the flight review is to maintain your CERTIFICATE, not the rating. I tell you this as a DPE...
 
61.56(h) says the flight review can be combined with requirements of 61.57. I would say that one flight could accomplish both.
 
There's no reason a FR can't be combined with an IPC. If the CFI is comfortable that your performance of the required tasks of an IPC plus whatever the CFI wants to add performed to PTS standards "demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate," there's nothing preventing him from signing both endorsements.
 
All good as long as training is logged, but again, you cannot log training on a check. This came from local fsdo. But we all know that they each run as independant franchises!
 
Ziggyfuzz said:
I tell you this as a DPE...
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While wearing your DPE hat, you are technically prohibited from providing "training." But even then, at least until the FAA finally cleared up the CFI issue, DPEs were authorized to sign of on flight reviews as part of a CFI ride.

But CFIs are not under the same restrictions. We can certainly perform the two related instructional roles of "evaluator" and "trainer" at the same time. Indeed, it's hard to imagine instruction without evaluation.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
While wearing your DPE hat, you are technically prohibited from providing "training." But even then, at least until the FAA finally cleared up the CFI issue, DPEs were authorized to sign of on flight reviews as part of a CFI ride.

But CFIs are not under the same restrictions. We can certainly perform the two related instructional roles of "evaluator" and "trainer" at the same time. Indeed, it's hard to imagine instruction without evaluation.
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The issuamce of any additional certificate or rating statys the clock over, no sign off needed.
 
Ziggyfuzz said:
The issuamce of any additional certificate or rating statys the clock over, no sign off needed.
Click to expand...
Different issue. I was referring to a DPE doing an IPC as a DPE. not as a CFI. I'm sure you're familiar with the problem that, until very recently, a CFI ride did not count as a flight review substitute.
 
Though I am a DPE, I'm still an aviator like anyone else. I do make mistakes and I can still learn anything anytime. the issuance of an original cfi certificate is like any other, it will count as a BFR however cfi renewal does not count as a BFR
 
Ziggyfuzz said:
Though I am a DPE, I'm still an aviator like anyone else. I do make mistakes and I can still learn anything anytime. the issuance of an original cfi certificate is like any other, it will count as a BFR however cfi renewal does not count as a BFR
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Wrong again.

...passed any of the following need not accomplish the flight review required by this section:

(1)...

(2) A practical test conducted by an examiner for the issuance of a flight instructor certificate, an additional rating on a flight instructor certificate, renewal of a flight instructor certificate,
or reinstatement of a flight instructor certificate.

And, prior to one month ago, even an original instructor issuance did not count as a flight review, that's what @MidlifeFlyer was saying.
 
I knew reinstatement counted. I guess what I meant to say was a renewal that involves a checkride counts. Renewal based on duties and responsibilities with no checkride does not count but for the ground portion. :)
 
Surely one of the training flights leading to the CFI checkride counts as the BFR, otherwise you are not current to be PIC for the checkride. FSDO won't like that. Do you have your 3 touch and goes for currency also?

As done by a CFI/II an IPC and a BFR could be done in the same flight, as long as you log the BFR ground?

Alex.
 
All I really needed to know is if they can be combined in the same event (flight) and the FAA will answer them it's ok to do so.

I'm asking this because it will save me from having to do a ck ride with the local guys, I'm currently under training at my new company and I will fly under supervision for a while, at the end of PICUS I have a base ck but it does not count for a license renewal.

ahw01 said:
As done by a CFI/II an IPC and a BFR could be done in the same flight, as long as you log the BFR ground?
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Do you need the ground portion if you hold a current CFI, in this case?
 
Ziggyfuzz said:
Though I am a DPE, I'm still an aviator like anyone else. I do make mistakes and I can still learn anything anytime. the issuance of an original cfi certificate is like any other, it will count as a BFR however cfi renewal does not count as a BFR
Click to expand...

Since you are a DPE I would like to ask you something, why is it that many DPEs take so much authority on their personal side over how things are done, from what I have seen there is like no standardization among them.

Is it normal that during a CFI ck ride, the DPE refuses to switch the fuel tanks (PA28) or to touch the controls when asked. Force the CFI candidate into a lecture only Oral?

And on top of everything being heavy enough to exceed the front station weight limits?

What criteria does the FAA uses to pick them?
 
I will try and answer your points as best as I can with all due respect to a group of us out there who do this. First of all the DPEs take so much personal authority over what we do because that's a right that was given to us by the FAA when we were chosen, and it says so right on the practical test standards. Unfortunately some abuse that or take it a little too far, thank God those are in the minority. In the area that I work in we have a really good group of people for the most part. We have the largest number of DPE's is in the country and the majority of us fly professionally for airlines helicopter flight schools, military etc. Why does a DPE do things like you stating in your example, not switching fuel tanks when you ask him to? Because the rides that you are doing are single pilot competency rides. You are to demonstrate single pilot competency, it is not a crew environment; single pilot resource management is evaluated all times. We do play dumb and play the dumb passenger and refuse to do things for you not because we want to be dicks but because we are required to do so by the FAA. The guidance we are given as to how to conduct a practical test is spelled out in an FAA order. Abiding by that order provides us immunity and protection from liability what occasions arise that someone wants to go into litigation over an accident or incident. Doing things the way we do generally protects us in the event that someone screws up after they have flown with us. I cannot speak to your question about the forward station issue doesn't make much sense to me without more information. As far as how the FAA selects a pilot examiner, that is based on their reputation in the local community as a flight instructor, and it's based on their record as a pilot. Then they go through a panel interview process to determine their ability to be technically competent, and make sound judgments according to the practical test standards. Of course someone could be the perfect candidate when they are selected and over time degrade to be somewhat of a knucklehead. We have DPEs on both ends of the extreme; there are DPEs that are way too strict and a little too far out there, and we have DPEs who are much like Santa Claus. Somewhere in between is where the rest of us lie.
 
Ziggyfuzz said:
I will try and answer your points as best as I can with all due respect to a group of us out there who do this. First of all the DPEs take so much personal authority over what we do because that's a right that was given to us by the FAA when we were chosen, and it says so right on the practical test standards. Unfortunately some abuse that or take it a little too far, thank God those are in the minority. In the area that I work in we have a really good group of people for the most part. We have the largest number of DPE's is in the country and the majority of us fly professionally for airlines helicopter flight schools, military etc. Why does a DPE do things like you stating in your example, not switching fuel tanks when you ask him to? Because the rides that you are doing are single pilot competency rides. You are to demonstrate single pilot competency, it is not a crew environment; single pilot resource management is evaluated all times. We do play dumb and play the dumb passenger and refuse to do things for you not because we want to be dicks but because we are required to do so by the FAA. The guidance we are given as to how to conduct a practical test is spelled out in an FAA order. Abiding by that order provides us immunity and protection from liability what occasions arise that someone wants to go into litigation over an accident or incident. Doing things the way we do generally protects us in the event that someone screws up after they have flown with us. I cannot speak to your question about the forward station issue doesn't make much sense to me without more information. As far as how the FAA selects a pilot examiner, that is based on their reputation in the local community as a flight instructor, and it's based on their record as a pilot. Then they go through a panel interview process to determine their ability to be technically competent, and make sound judgments according to the practical test standards. Of course someone could be the perfect candidate when they are selected and over time degrade to be somewhat of a knucklehead. We have DPEs on both ends of the extreme; there are DPEs that are way too strict and a little too far out there, and we have DPEs who are much like Santa Claus. Somewhere in between is where the rest of us lie.
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Thanks for your well detailed answer, I understand that for most ck rides you have to show single pilots competency, but I was talking about a CFI ride. For the weight issue, I know of a X DPE that weighs 300 LBS, when most airplanes have a 400 LBS station limit, how can he still possibly perform his duties legally, but again nobody says anything.
 
My experience with DPEs is that the vast majority do a good job. I'd go so far as to say the average DPE does a better job than the average FAA Inspector. That's not a knock on inspectors, it's just the way the system functions.

I've looked into complaints about DPEs and I have yet to find one that was justified. When stories are unraveled, they can have so many differences from reality that you sometimes begin to wonder how that event morphed into that story.

Are there bad DPEs out there? Yes. However, I can't think of any profession that doesn't have someone they aren't proud of.

If you are seeing a lot of problems with a group of DPEs, I'd look to the FSDO as the source of the problem. If there is a truly is a problem and someone wants it resolved, there are checks and balances in the FAA that will investigate complaints from the public.
 
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