Can an FO be violated for something the Captain does?

[Screaming_Emu]

As a captain, if you let me get you violated, you're not doing your job and, well, the FAA will hammer your ass as well.

But...I don't even work where you work.

Man, talk about pressure.

 

[A Life Aloft]

Violates, not violated. Or get a violation, I suppose, unless this is an idiom among pilots. I mean the Feds to like to rape people when they can. Bad jokes aside and being no lawyer or pilot, my guess is it depends on what the FAA thinks. Should he? If he didn't know at all, then no. And I would think that is how the law works, though someone can correct me. It sort of sucks for the innocent if it doesn't work that. way. I am assuming the FO did not neglect anything, but did everything in good faith and to the book. But to use the language where everything sounds profound, innocentes nocentibus satisfacere debet puniri administrationem. [The innocent must be punished to satisfy bureaucrats]

 

[Bandit_Driver]

I'm not an attorney, but from experience violations generally come in pairs.

or in triplicate on older aircraft

 

[Adler]

or in triplicate on older aircraft

True, but in my experience in older aircraft it’s usually the FO with a bag of Egg McMuffins that causes the event.

 

[BobDDuck]

You are not paying them the big bucks to make those decisions; at least not at the regionals.

What does one's pay have to do with their ability to make the correct decision?

True story...

I got an investigation started against the captain and myself a while back because we flew the wrong heading after departure and although there was no loss of separation, it did set off an alert. The captain didn't believe that we'd done anything wrong and protested HEAVILY to Center both on the radio and on the phone after we landed. It spiraled out of control rather quickly and resulted in a CP getting a phone call from ATC at 830 on a Sunday evening about what had transpired. I was doing my best to defuse it the whole time but... eh... culture says the FO doesn't always get a say. Anyhow, we both filed ASAPs and both get a response that the ERC was giving us an administrative letter of warning. I was on probation at the time and was marginally concerned but nothing really came of it. In fact, while the captain got an official letter, I never got anything. A year later I was renewing my CFI at the FSDO and asked our POI about it. He said that unless it's something the FO specifically does (or doesn't do) that causes the violation, the PIC is solely responsible. Of course that's not the case in 95% of other operation in the industry but here, that's his view. Just another example of FAA Kingdom Building. Also, I think the issue was much more about how the event was handled rather than that the event had occurred in the first place.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

What does one's pay have to do with their ability to make the correct decision?

True story...

I got an investigation started against the captain and myself a while back because we flew the wrong heading after departure and although there was no loss of separation, it did set off an alert. The captain didn't believe that we'd done anything wrong and protested HEAVILY to Center both on the radio and on the phone after we landed. It spiraled out of control rather quickly and resulted in a CP getting a phone call from ATC at 830 on a Sunday evening about what had transpired. I was doing my best to defuse it the whole time but... eh... culture says the FO doesn't always get a say. Anyhow, we both filed ASAPs and both get a response that the ERC was giving us an administrative letter of warning. I was on probation at the time and was marginally concerned but nothing really came of it. In fact, while the captain got an official letter, I never got anything. A year later I was renewing my CFI at the FSDO and asked our POI about it. He said that unless it's something the FO specifically does (or doesn't do) that causes the violation, the PIC is solely responsible. Of course that's not the case in 95% of other operation in the industry but here, that's his view. Just another example of FAA Kingdom Building. Also, I think the issue was much more about how the event was handled rather than that the event had occurred in the first place.

Deciding which (if any) of several legally responsible parties to take action against is a bit of discretion exercised by enforcement people in just about every branch of government from the FBI down to your local town's building inspector.

Underlined part - so, did you get a Warning Letter or not?

 

[BobDDuck]

Deciding which (if any) of several legally responsible parties to take action against is a bit of discretion exercised by enforcement people in just about every branch of government from the FBI down to your local town's building inspector.

Underlined part - so, did you get a Warning Letter or not?

I did not. Wasn't my fault the captain handled it poorly I guess.

 

[MikeD]

You live as a crew, you die as a crew. In more ways than one.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

True, but in my experience in older aircraft it’s usually the FO with a bag of Egg McMuffins that causes the event.

Darn good breakfast too....