C208 SIC question

kellwolf

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
Moving the conversation from the Jobs Available board over here. For those of you just tuning in, here's run down. There's a SIC job open in Hawaii for flying C208s. The major question was, is this even legal to log or is it a money making scheme playing on questionable logging practices. The answer? Depends on the company's operating procedures. If they are a 121 operator, I think they have to have an SIC no matter what. There may be some freaky turboprop guidelines that I don't know about. If they are 135, here we go:

FAR Part 135.99
[ QUOTE ]
a) No certificate holder may operate an aircraft with less than the
minimum flight crew specified in the aircraft operating limitations or
the Aircraft Flight Manual for that aircraft and required by this part
for the kind of operation being conducted.
(b) No certificate holder may operate an aircraft without a second
in command if that aircraft has a passenger seating configuration,
excluding any pilot seat, of ten seats or more.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is another reg that states that if you are IFR, you need either a SIC or autopilot if carrying pax. So, I guess it depends on if the operation a) has more than ten pax seats and b) if they have an autopilot. I'd say less than 10 seats or an autopilot certified under 135, find a different job. Otherwise, this one might be legit.
 
Let's see, I must be missing something: 121.159 prohibits single-engine aircraft to operate under 121. Is there an exemption to this somewhere that some operators use? Honest question. I could swear I've heard of 121 Caravan operators.

Ray
 
Since I work for the company, maybe I can answer.

1. It's a paid ramping position that allows you to fly as an SIC when your ramping duties are done. PM me for details.

2. Our ops-spec allow for autopilot in lieu of a SIC, So, if the SIC is there, it's loggable time

3. we are a 135 operator, not 121.

PM me if you have any questions.

sb
 
Has anyone who worked there NOT been laughed out of an interview with a logbook full of single-engine SIC time?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Since I work for the company, maybe I can answer.

1. It's a paid ramping position that allows you to fly as an SIC when your ramping duties are done. PM me for details.

2. Our ops-spec allow for autopilot in lieu of a SIC, So, if the SIC is there, it's loggable time

3. we are a 135 operator, not 121.

PM me if you have any questions.

sb

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh???
 
[ QUOTE ]
Since I work for the company, maybe I can answer.

1. It's a paid ramping position that allows you to fly as an SIC when your ramping duties are done. PM me for details.

2. Our ops-spec allow for autopilot in lieu of a SIC, So, if the SIC is there, it's loggable time

3. we are a 135 operator, not 121.

PM me if you have any questions.

sb

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes absolutely no sense to me.
 
[ QUOTE ]
It's a paid ramping position that allows you to fly as an SIC when your ramping duties are done. PM me for details

[/ QUOTE ]

So, after you're done slinging bags, you get to ride along?

[ QUOTE ]
Our ops-spec allow for autopilot in lieu of a SIC, So, if the SIC is there, it's loggable time

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd wanna see the data on this and scrutinze the hell out of it. Seems to me if you are approved single pilot with the autopilot, unless the autopilot is INOP there's no way the SIC would be needed, hence no way to log it legally.

[ QUOTE ]
we are a 135 operator, not 121.

[/ QUOTE ]

That one's pretty clear.
smile.gif
 
Nope, out in Hawaii, flying the van, loving life. But who knows what the future holds and where I'll be next.

sb
 
The ops specs allow for an autopilot in lieu of SIC, you say. Okay, so is there an autopilot on board? Is it operational? Are you saying you can have both an autopilot AND and an SIC on board and the SIC time is loggable per ops specs? Does the autopilot have to be disabled for loggable SIC?

--If there's no autopilot, there has to be an SIC.
What follows from that is:

-- If there's an autopilot, there's no requirement for an SIC. (So, SIC is not required per FARs/ops specs and, accordingly, not loggable.)

Clarify, if you wish...
 
Our ops specs says that we are required to have an SIC, but we MAY use an autopilot in lieu of a second in command. I've researched this elsewhere as well, and there is no place that I can find that the FAA has said that it's not loggable.

In fact, if you look at the regs, the only time that you are required to log is for currency and for the use of additional ratings, and in this particular case, for currency, all the FAA is looking for is sole manipulator, meaning for a landing to count, you must be manipulating the controls, SIC or PIC, doesn't matter.

Now, whether or not the SIC time logged in a 135 aircraft that has a functional autopilot and a captain that is single pilot qualified counts towards your ATP, that's a question for the FAA.

We've discussed this with the FSDO and they agree that if the SIC is there, they can log it as SIC time because they are a required crewmember, even if the autopilot is functional, hence the phrase, "in lieu of" The way I read this is that the autopilot CAN be used instead of a SIC, but doesn't have to be.

We are not the only company that does this, Ameriflight does it as well, and charges for the seat, something that we don't do.

Now, having said that, how it will look on a resume and how future employers will look at it? I honestly don't know. I don't have to worry about it.. I'm a captain and I have no SIC time to try an explain.

So, if you wanna call up the FSDO and complain.. be my guest, I'm just passing on what they have said. I just don't want to argue about it, it's a stupid argument, that's been hashed out about a million times, and is interpeted many ways by many people. The way I look at it... not my problem.

If you don't want to log it, then don't, if you do, just be able to back yourself up with fact and not speculation which seems to be an epidemic on these forums sometimes.

as far as the position, yes, after you are done slingin bags for the day, you get to go fly. If you got something better, then I recommend that you take it. This works out very well for some and again, I don't have to worry about it because I'm a captain, and I still get to sling bags for my own flight.

sb

[ QUOTE ]
The ops specs allow for an autopilot in lieu of SIC, you say. Okay, so is there an autopilot on board? Is it operational? Are you saying you can have both an autopilot AND and an SIC on board and the SIC time is loggable per ops specs? Does the autopilot have to be disabled for loggable SIC?

--If there's no autopilot, there has to be an SIC.
What follows from that is:

-- If there's an autopilot, there's no requirement for an SIC. (So, SIC is not required per FARs/ops specs and, accordingly, not loggable.)

Clarify, if you wish...

[/ QUOTE ]
 
ScubaBri is 100% correct. The only true "single pilot" 135 operators are those that operate with just one pilot in the whole company. That is the only exemption that allows true single pilot operation.

By default, all "normal" 135 operators are two pilot. The SIC is requried. The exemption states you may substitute a working, approved autopilot "in lieu of the second in command."

If the autopilot is working (and yes, even if it is flying the aircraft) both pilots may log the time provided they have completed approved training and checking for that aircraft.

According to OK City, this is the intent of the rule.
 
Yeah, they get it Scuba,,,,,,you're a "captain"!
smile.gif
If you're flying a "van", I would hope so.

I don't know if you're just having a crumby morning (had many myself), or if you just have a crumby attitude. I happen to agree with you regarding the SIC time as well. However, I have a feeling that most corporate flight departments and major airlines will have a hard time believing in this SIC caravan time.

Finally, the job description is "ramper" and then, if you're lucky and have time between Samsonites, you "get" to fly in the right seat of a Caravan? Please.....
 
Sorry, yah. I was just having a bad morning, but the thing that gripes me is the people who boo and his about the ramper/sic position without all the information. Like I said, if you don't like it, don't do it. It's not a pay for training position like it used to be, and for low time people who want to build some time, you are flying good equipment in hawaii, instead of flipping burgers on the sidelines. Most work 5-6 hours ramping and then hop on a flight and log 4-5 hours a day.

Somebody explain why this is bad, because none of them are complaining.

sb

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, they get it Scuba,,,,,,you're a "captain"!
smile.gif
If you're flying a "van", I would hope so.

I don't know if you're just having a crumby morning (had many myself), or if you just have a crumby attitude. I happen to agree with you regarding the SIC time as well. However, I have a feeling that most corporate flight departments and major airlines will have a hard time believing in this SIC caravan time.

Finally, the job description is "ramper" and then, if you're lucky and have time between Samsonites, you "get" to fly in the right seat of a Caravan? Please.....

[/ QUOTE ]
 
I can see your point Scuba. Hey if people want the job, keep it for a while and don't complain, more power to 'em. It just seems silly that an airline would even produce a position like this.
 
How are you really required as an SIC if the flight can go with or without you? I agree though, what a crazy position. To each his own, good luck on the interviews!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top