Brakes, reverse, landing techniques.

[DropTank]

I know this is a classic thread but, normal landing in a turbofan aircraft: brakes primary, or TRs? Does it make a difference if you’re flying carbon vs steel? Do you wait for nosewheel touchdown before popping the buckets (it’s recommended for my airframe)?
Since I work for a 135 and we have zero standardization, every FO I’ve flown with does things a little different. Based on my understanding of carbon brakes, I primarily use brakes to slow on landing and unless it’s a short runway usually only go idle reverse. Then for taxi if I find I want to ride the brakes I’ll instead pop one bucket. Again, because of my understanding of the care and feeding of carbon brakes.

What are you flying?

It depends on the airplane but there are some reasons for peoples odd ideas.
I had one pilot lose his mind at bucket deployment with the nose off the ground.
He used to fly MD-88's and the like and they had a chance to ding the buckets with a nose up deployment.

Assuming no auto land auto braking, nose down, TR's and braking as necessary.

It doesn't take much skill to gently lower the nose while deploying TR's but as a captain, you're setting an example and someone of lesser skill and experience might try it and slam the nose.

Depending on the TR, some are just fine at idle and any spooling makes little difference other than announcing your arrival.

 

[Jimmy_Norton]

Is one technique to disengage auto brakes on the 737 to stab the pedals fairly aggressively?

 

[ShortField]

Is one technique to disengage auto brakes on the 737 to stab the pedals fairly aggressively?

I mean…that would do it.

 

[Roger Roger]

I know that in the dinosaur gulfstream that I fly with Carbon Brakes, we have gotten an enormous amount of life out of them by..

Main wheels on the ground, deploying the TR's, spooling slightly above idle and then; runway depending, IDLE TR's from 60 knots to normal taxi and beginning light wheel braking utilizing one continuous application. And of course minimizing as much as possible applications during taxi, but if utilizing them during taxi to always attempt to do one continuous application and keep modulations down as much as possible. Records show the oldest brake on the plane was replaced in March of 2001 (21 years and 2 months) and 3300 landings ago.

That’s impressive! I have to think at that age you’ll worry more about the seals giving out due to age and leaking (which we had happen on a brake a few weeks ago) than wear.

 

[Jimmy_Norton]

I mean…that would do it.

Seems like that was the method used the last few times I flew on one.

Just don't do this...

The pilot flying intentionally disarmed the autobrake by retracting the spoilers at 103 knots and no manual brake application occurred until 16 seconds after touchdown. Therefore, it is reasonable to believe that the pilot flying judged that there was sufficient runway remaining when the spoilers were retracted, based on the observed runway condition.

The Aviation Herald

Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation

avherald.com

 

[Roger Roger]

Flying the same plane as the OP, my technique is somewhat situational dependent as my company flies in to both 4000 and 10000 ft runways. Home base, the turn off in either direction is 6000-6400 ft down the 9000 ft runway and idle reverse will usually get me to taxi speed without any brakes.

Touch down and open the reversers while controlling the nose wheel touchdown. Once the nose wheel is down, reversers stay at idle or maybe go to half thrust as they really aren't all that effective. Brakes are applied as necessary to take the exit I briefed during the approach brief.

Sounds like a refined version of what I do. I do tend to get on the brakes a little very shortly after main wheel touchdown, partly because it helps to de rotate and partly to make sure everything is copacetic. To be clear, I apply them lightly and keep them applied, modulating pressure as needed for runway length, until exiting because again-carbon brakes and number of applications.

 

[spbrian]

That’s impressive! I have to think at that age you’ll worry more about the seals giving out due to age and leaking (which we had happen on a brake a few weeks ago) than wear.

I believe if my memory serves, we have had to do some work on them because of the seals, but I don't think we needed to touch the pads or disc's. It's looking like the quoted brake set will be changed out this year or early next.

 

[Ian_J]

Seems like that was the method used the last few times I flew on one.

Maybe they were using Autobrakes MAX? Max will get your attention.

 

[Jimmy_Norton]

Maybe they were using Autobrakes MAX? Max will get your attention.

Nope, normal braking, then a sudden increase then decrease, like someone stomped on the pedals then let off.

 

[Ian_J]

Nope, normal braking, then a sudden increase then decrease, like someone stomped on the pedals then let off.

Yeah, that’s odd. It’s not hard to smoothly press the brakes to disconnect the AB.

 

[ShortField]

Nope, normal braking, then a sudden increase then decrease, like someone stomped on the pedals then let off.

If you weren’t up front how do you know?

 

[SteveC]

...-carbon brakes and number of applications.

My understanding (and I could be way off base here) is that it is cold brake application that wears on carbon brakes, as opposed to just number of applications. In other words, if you go ahead and get some heat built up with the initial push, subsequent applications don't have the high wear that they would at a lower temperature. So I go ahead and build some heat by actually using them after touchdown (has the benefit of verifying I have good brakes available earlier), then don't worry about it how I use them on the rest of the landing roll/taxi-in.

Disclaimer; my understanding of "good technique" is built on my extrapolating out my limited understanding of what causes wear, not any specific training received, so I'm wide open to learning on this topic...

 

[Jimmy_Norton]

If you weren’t up front how do you know?

Just going by how it felt in the back.

 

[Max Power]

In the 145, I’d be on the brakes as soon as I let the nose down but gently easing into them while selecting reverse and modulating pressure to the pedals as I felt warranted. I’m still working out my technique in the Airbus because auto brakes are a thing and I am a noob FO on reserve again, so the CA decides how much braking I actually get to do.

 

[MikeD]

In the 73-100/200 Jurassic with JT8Ds, you wait until the nose is on the ground before popping the boards at all. And once popping them, giving them a second or so for the pins to retract on the levers before demanding reverse thrust.

In the 73 Classic and NG, with CFMs, popping open the boards at mains touchdown, gives time for the pins in the TR handles to retract so upon nose touchdown, the TR levers move smoothly to begin reverse thrust. Versus someone popping the TR handles and immediately trying to pull them to reverse thrust and yanking against the handle pins that are trying to retract, with the handles going nowhere.

 

[Crockrocket94]

Ok, so you change the brake setting from 3 to 2 during the decel. The numbers you using are based off AB3, and not a hybrid of AB3 and AB2. So Im guessing you have some sort of PWB that you get your numbers back and load the FMC with. Would you go to AB2 mid roll if the AB2 line had dashes through it saying your stopping margin is not within limits?

Just seems like a fed/CKAM would have issues with that... as long as you have the margins for 2, I don't think there's anything that says you cant change it from 3-2-1 whatever.

I looked at the CC for the 737 (App with lots of info) it states that Landing setting may be selected after touchdown prior to 30 KTS.



But it is against our normal SOP for moving the selector during the landing roll.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Ok, so you change the brake setting from 3 to 2 during the decel. The numbers you using are based off AB3, and not a hybrid of AB3 and AB2. So Im guessing you have some sort of PWB that you get your numbers back and load the FMC with. Would you go to AB2 mid roll if the AB2 line had dashes through it saying your stopping margin is not within limits?

Just seems like a fed/CKAM would have issues with that... as long as you have the margins for 2, I don't think there's anything that says you cant change it from 3-2-1 whatever.

I looked at the CC for the 737 (App with lots of info) it states that Landing setting may be selected after touchdown prior to 30 KTS.



But it is against our normal SOP for moving the selector during the landing roll.

I wouldn't use your hand to touch anything while landing on a contaminated runway. It's a fund nerdism tho. I'm talking about 8500 or greater dry with some Xwind. SEA, ANC, LAS, JFK etc...

A for effort.