Before the next person bashes Colgan...

[Seggy]

You know I love ya, Seggy, but I think you've had one too many adult beverages before posting. The things I've heard from CJC pilots (including yourself) about your daily operation are things I've never heard from any other 121 airline in the country. It amazes me what goes on over there.

It amazes me as well, but, in fairness to them, it has gotten much better. From hotels we stay at to making sure we get properly paid, I have seen improvements since January 2007.

Pinnacle is really trying to eliminate the BS we have had to deal with. Renting cars from BKW to AOO to SHD is a thing of the past thankfully due to the new philosophy in place.

Like I said, I was basically given a duty rig credit yesterday for sitting around babysitting a broken airplane. I am paid for my preflight, long scheduled sits, and babysitting.

We need a union here. We need ALPA here, but to SOLELY place the blame on us is quite unfair. I

 

[Seggy]

Seggy, it sounds to me like you are just tired and frustrated and happy to have a job in this economic climate and wish everyone would get off your back about it. Assuming that, I think its a fair request. You were a hell of a pilot and a hell of a co-worker and you deserve a break from everyone. I think it is important to say that my attacks on CJC have to do with your boys down in Manasses (specifically George "notmybuddy" Casey), not you personally.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to get back to making more money as a first year Captain at Mesaba than I ever would have even if I stayed at CJC and kept my longevity. That is, unless the guy who replaced me for the Beech upgrade class has made it to the Q. Then I'd simply shoot myself because I'd be back in EWR again, then I'd make no money, thus solving my equation.

All the best luck friend.

Joe,

Seriously man good points. I am not happy just to have a job. Many I am flying with are scared crapless about being in the street in a few months. I don't blame them and am trying to do everything I can to make sure our performance is as good as it can be, asking for shortcuts, etc.

The move you made was the right one. The way I view it here is how can I get the most pay for my crew and view it as a big game. It has gotten a little easier actually with the FAs and their contract. I just call crew scheduling, quote from the FA contract and they give it to us 9/10 times. You know how much I want a union here. That has not changed. All I am saying is we, as regional pilots, are in the same boat together. In order for us to get ALPA here, everyone really needs to stop bashing Colgan pilots. Yes our pay sucks, but there are other things that make up for it. That is of course if you know how to play the game and beat the system.

 

[stuckingfk]

That's ridiculous. Delta is flying RJs hub-to-hub. They could fill 767s, but they operate RJs instead.

Do you understand frequency?

Passengers book travel for several reasons. Most importantly they book on cost, then time. Business professionals book on schedule.

Sure Delta could fly a 767 from SLC to ATL, but the frequency would go way down which in turn would mean less passengers overall.

I could go on and on, but business is foreign to most pilots.

 

[meritflyer]

Nonunion carriers do undercut the industry. As well as the best paid RJ operators.

Are you seeing a double standard here or is it just me?

First, you say Colganites aren't "undercutters";

But, prior you said that non-union carriers, including the carrier you fly for, undercut everyone;

Then, you take a turn to mainline town;

However, you have argued and implied Colgan undercuts other regional operators;

Thus, I think you should be careful. I've always admired your positions on ALPA and being able to admit non-union airlines are a source if pitfall for the industry;

Yet, now you appear to be 'revisiting' the issue;

In summary, you're appearing to be a flip flopper.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Do you understand frequency?

Passengers book travel for several reasons. Most importantly they book on cost, then time. Business professionals book on schedule.

Sure Delta could fly a 767 from SLC to ATL, but the frequency would go way down which in turn would mean less passengers overall.

I could go on and on, but business is foreign to most pilots.

Delta could run a 767 every half hour, all day long, and every single flight would be oversold between hubs. There is no legitimate reason to use RJs on these flights.

 

[meritflyer]

Delta could run a 767 every half hour, all day long, and every single flight would be oversold between hubs. There is no legitimate reason to use RJs on these flights.

Okay...

So if it makes no sense, why is it done?

 

[stuckingfk]

Delta could run a 767 every half hour, all day long, and every single flight would be oversold between hubs. There is no legitimate reason to use RJs on these flights.

You are completely off base here. Just stop.

I consider Delta to be a good company with a smart management team. If it made more sense for them to run 767's to each hub every half hour then they'd do it.

SLC is hardly a destination spot. It's a place for many passengers to fly to, connect, and go somewhere else. All a 767 would do is provide more seats, waste money, and drive down prices.

Okay...

So if it makes no sense, why is it done?

Cause he thinks mainline pilots should fly everything. Who cares if it makes no business sense or loses money. As long as the pilots are making money.

 

[meritflyer]

Hate to say it but Mr. ALPA is gettin' owned by logic!!

 

[Gonzo]

Okay...

So if it makes no sense, why is it done?

Why does AMR use 37-50 seat planes on BWI/DCA-LGA/JFK when Delta fills mainline planes all day.

 

[Seggy]

Are you seeing a double standard here or is it just me?

First, you say Colganites aren't "undercutters";

But, prior you said that non-union carriers, including the carrier you fly for, undercut everyone;

Then, you take a turn to mainline town;

However, you have argued and implied Colgan undercuts other regional operators;

Thus, I think you should be careful. I've always admired your positions on ALPA and being able to admit non-union airlines are a source if pitfall for the industry;

Yet, now you appear to be 'revisiting' the issue;

In summary, you're appearing to be a flip flopper.

Merit, what I am saying is that people over the past few months have loved calling Colgan undercutters. They feel we are 'stealing' their flying. Did you see the one on which the rumor was going around about us flying in the ATL for Delta. A few guys lost their underwear over there bashing everything about us quite frankly from our hat policy to our performance numbers.

It is uncalled for. No one knew about Colgan for a long time. That was fine and I liked it that way. But because we have been assigned some flying from other airlines everyone loves to hate us. Fine. Yes we are undercutting the industry. There I said it. WE ARE as a nonuniozed group.

However, I remember taking MD-88s from LGA to ROC back in the day. Guess who flies that route now as well as other contact lift providers? We all undercut each other at the regional route per se. Hell it happens on the legacy level as well. American runs a fare to Europe, other follow. We have gotten a lot of crapola at Colgan from airlines over the past few months. We at Colgan are a small problem in the entire industry. To label US as being the only ones in the wrong is unfair. Get what I am saying?

 

[Gonzo]

Cause he thinks mainline pilots should fly everything. Who cares if it makes no business sense or loses money. As long as the pilots are making money.

Mainline guys should be flying most if not all the jets. I know here at AMR APA pilots were going to fly RJ at the same rate Eagle does, but the mainline FA's, A&P's, CSA, and rampers didn't want to work the RJ flights at Eagle rates.

 

[MusketeerMan]

Seriously Seggy? Seriously? I like ya'...I don't know ya' or have never met ya', but seriously???

Whining about being bashed? Everyone of us have been bashed on here at some point, whether it being personal or in regards to what we fly or a move our company made or what union we belong to! My company along with myself has been bashed numerous times because I fly an evil 170...WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're much bigger than this to care or to let this get under your skin (assuming it can get through the hair).... Pilots...geez.

 

[MattB]

What is the difference between colgan and mesa? Honestly. I hear alot of bad things about both airlines and I see pleanty of mesa bashing and it seems like someone gets jumped on if they say anything negative about colgan. Why is this?

 

[aloft]

SLC is hardly a destination spot. It's a place for many passengers to fly to, connect, and go somewhere else. All a 767 would do is provide more seats, waste money, and drive down prices.

You've obviously not a winter sports enthusiast....

 

[Seggy]

Seriously Seggy? Seriously? I like ya'...I don't know ya' or have never met ya', but seriously???

Whining about being bashed? Everyone of us have been bashed on here at some point, whether it being personal or in regards to what we fly or a move our company made or what union we belong to! My company along with myself has been bashed numerous times because I fly an evil 170...WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're much bigger than this to care or to let this get under your skin (assuming it can get through the hair).... Pilots...geez.

Personally, I don't really care.

However, the jist of my post is this. We have a lot of guys at my company that lurk jetcareers, especially on the Q400. A lot of guys are stuck in the crashpad in EWR on reserve reading this (they should stop lurking so much and post more :yar. As we get more involved with the ALPA drive I don't want them to feel like it is an us against everyone else type of mentality out there. All regionals, except for the wholly owned, are in the same boat. We are all contact lift providers. In another thread I was shaking my head what was said about us. Like I said, me personally, I don't care. Fine say it. I'll still buy the first round. However, some young FO in his first airline job might take great offense to it.

We need ALPA here to raise the bar in the industry. I don't want guys to develop an us vs everyone else mentality. If that happens ALPA won't get passed here. We are all in this together.

 

[derg]

You know I love ya, Seggy, but I think you've had one too many adult beverages before posting.

Hey, it's JC, it happens sometimes! I had a couple and today I'm picking thru the forum looking for any egregious "alcoposts" I made last evening.

 

[stuckingfk]

You've obviously not a winter sports enthusiast....

No I am, and I know SLC has some of the best skiing in the world. I was going to mention that but didn't. But in comparison to LGA, DFW, PHX, LAS, Salt Lake City sees less visitors per year overall.

 

[meritflyer]

Merit, what I am saying is that people over the past few months have loved calling Colgan undercutters. They feel we are 'stealing' their flying. Did you see the one on which the rumor was going around about us flying in the ATL for Delta. A few guys lost their underwear over there bashing everything about us quite frankly from our hat policy to our performance numbers.

It is uncalled for. No one knew about Colgan for a long time. That was fine and I liked it that way. But because we have been assigned some flying from other airlines everyone loves to hate us. Fine. Yes we are undercutting the industry. There I said it. WE ARE as a nonuniozed group.

However, I remember taking MD-88s from LGA to ROC back in the day. Guess who flies that route now as well as other contact lift providers? We all undercut each other at the regional route per se. Hell it happens on the legacy level as well. American runs a fare to Europe, other follow. We have gotten a lot of crapola at Colgan from airlines over the past few months. We at Colgan are a small problem in the entire industry. To label US as being the only ones in the wrong is unfair. Get what I am saying?

Did someone change the song?

 

[mjb00123]

I have been doing some thinking. People LOVE bashing Colgan and quite frankly it is uncalled for.

Yes we have our issues, however, to bash us as 'undercutters' etc is quite uncalled for. First off, when I first started off at Colgan, NO ONE knew who we where. I remember jumpseating for the first time on Airways, happy as a kid in a candy shop to be sitting up front on a 757 from MCO to CLT. The crew had NO IDEA who Colgan was. This was a recurring issue for my first year and a half here. NO ONE knew who we where, what we flew, or cared for that matter. A few times, while jumping on contracted flying operators I was look at and thought of as a cute odity. 'Aww, it is a poor Colgan guy, when are you going to make the jump and fly a RJ,' was said numerous times to me while traveling around.

In the past year and a half, the calls have been greater for calling us undercutters, contracted flying stealers, whatever. I ask, what makes us undercuttersstealer's though? Yes we need a union here, but the more and more I talk to other people at other airlines, things really are on par with other airlines, if not better.

Some people love to bash us on pay. Well, our pay rates suck, but, our pay rules do make up for it in a way. We are paid for first flight of the day checks, runups, repos, wx cancelations, hot reserve pay (which basically is a duty rig pay which I doubt other airlines have), block or better, and other little oddities that one can work in. Are guys at XJET being paid to do their first flight of the day checks? What about at ASA, RAH, or American Eagle? My pay credit yesterday was suppose to be 4:27 minutes. Well I was stuck all day in BDL with a mechanical. Ended up with a 6:56 minute pay credit, didn't fly a leg, and made it home six hours late. Is that really undercutting anyone? Made more for the day than I was scheduled to do and didn't have to say V1. I am not bragging here, just saying.

A lot of people love to bash our scheduling department and what they make our pilots do. After hearing stories about other airlines scheduling departments, well we all have the same issues.

Yes, we do need improvement here, we need ALPA on property, and we must raise the bar.

However, as times are tough in this industry, it is easy to point fingers at particularly groups. We must all look in the mirror and look at ourselves first before we point the finger at others. Don't look at one particular group for the problems of this industry. Not fair or right.

Somebody has been hitting the bottle a little to much! I understand where your heart is about all the bashing. But as far as the PAY, Please get off your high horse. Just explain why you and I now get zero credit for CX and WX for 48hrs. and then if its not giving to you that I now have to email somebody to get paid?:bandit:

 

[Firebird2XC]

You guys are cool with me, as long as ya stay outta ATL

Wait for it. Whatcha bet that Southernjets wouldn't love some Q400 traffic? Cheap cheap cheap. It'd be all too easy for Pinnacle Holdings to say "eh, we're not gonna use Pinnacle RJs for SJI anymore. We're gonna use Colgan Q400s."

The problem with Colgan is that it's not unionized, and being run side-by-side by the same controlling managers as a company that is. As long as that persists, union pilots are losing out. As long as Colgan pilots sit by and let themselves be baited into accepting less, they'll be used to undercut union pilot flying, pay rates, and work rules. As long as that continues, it sets a precedent for the rest of the industry.

I've had my share to say about Colgan, but I earned the right. I got the 'Colganoscopy' on far too many occasions. An outfit with a union-negotiated contract doesn't have that stuff. Management will try, surely, but the contract stops them cold every time. I've done it myself.

Either way, though, Seggy's right. The Colgan pilot group was divided in last year's Union effort, and the typical pilot "me first" mentality prevailed. Given the hiring trends, some pilots simply chose not to rock the boat and "Get up and get out" as fast as possible. Now that the industry's movement has stalled, we may all be wherever we are for a good long while.

It's time to stop with the playground name-calling and be serious. The shortcomings in quality of life at CJC are numerous, but repairable. The interest to Colgan pilots is obvious. The interests to the rest of us? Setting a unified standard that these near-poverty wages and draconian work rules WILL NOT STAND for professional aviators.

A good deal of the naysayers are correct- life often sucks at Colgan.

... but Seggy's more right. The union drive is on, and it affects ALL of us. It's time for less talk and more action. Support the union drive and get the the CJC crowd on board.

Remember: Only YOU can prevent pilots from "Doin' Da Colgan."