Before the next person bashes Colgan...

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Seggy

Well-Known Member
I have been doing some thinking. People LOVE bashing Colgan and quite frankly it is uncalled for.

Yes we have our issues, however, to bash us as 'undercutters' etc is quite uncalled for. First off, when I first started off at Colgan, NO ONE knew who we where. I remember jumpseating for the first time on Airways, happy as a kid in a candy shop to be sitting up front on a 757 from MCO to CLT. The crew had NO IDEA who Colgan was. This was a recurring issue for my first year and a half here. NO ONE knew who we where, what we flew, or cared for that matter. A few times, while jumping on contracted flying operators I was look at and thought of as a cute odity. 'Aww, it is a poor Colgan guy, when are you going to make the jump and fly a RJ,' was said numerous times to me while traveling around.

In the past year and a half, the calls have been greater for calling us undercutters, contracted flying stealers, whatever. I ask, what makes us undercuttersstealer's though? Yes we need a union here, but the more and more I talk to other people at other airlines, things really are on par with other airlines, if not better.

Some people love to bash us on pay. Well, our pay rates suck, but, our pay rules do make up for it in a way. We are paid for first flight of the day checks, runups, repos, wx cancelations, hot reserve pay (which basically is a duty rig pay which I doubt other airlines have), block or better, and other little oddities that one can work in. Are guys at XJET being paid to do their first flight of the day checks? What about at ASA, RAH, or American Eagle? My pay credit yesterday was suppose to be 4:27 minutes. Well I was stuck all day in BDL with a mechanical. Ended up with a 6:56 minute pay credit, didn't fly a leg, and made it home six hours late. Is that really undercutting anyone? Made more for the day than I was scheduled to do and didn't have to say V1. I am not bragging here, just saying.

A lot of people love to bash our scheduling department and what they make our pilots do. After hearing stories about other airlines scheduling departments, well we all have the same issues.

Yes, we do need improvement here, we need ALPA on property, and we must raise the bar.

However, as times are tough in this industry, it is easy to point fingers at particularly groups. We must all look in the mirror and look at ourselves first before we point the finger at others. Don't look at one particular group for the problems of this industry. Not fair or right.
 

Clocks

Well-Known Member
What is a "first flight of the day checks"?

You mean popping the panels on the preflight? The 20 second ice test, the 1 second it takes to hold down the TST button for the TCAS, the 5 seconds it takes to check the hydraulic pumps, or the few seconds it takes to check the reversionary panel while I'm doing other things? All together maybe...3 minutes of extra work? You guys get paid more for those things (the equivalent on your plane of course)?

I'm not mad at colgan, and I can't think if anything I've ever typed would be considered "bashing". But you are in fact paid 15-25% less to fly a larger airplane. If it's "bashing" to use a calculator then I guess yeah, I'm guilty.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
What is a "first flight of the day checks"?

Southernjets has those too. Usually it's the door security, standby power check and "noises".

I *heart* the 767. Align the IRU's, program the FMS, blast off.
 

v1valarob

Well-Known Member
What is a "first flight of the day checks"?

You mean popping the panels on the preflight? The 20 second ice test, the 1 second it takes to hold down the TST button for the TCAS, the 5 seconds it takes to check the hydraulic pumps, or the few seconds it takes to check the reversionary panel while I'm doing other things? All together maybe...3 minutes of extra work? You guys get paid more for those things (the equivalent on your plane of course)?

I'm not mad at colgan, and I can't think if anything I've ever typed would be considered "bashing". But you are in fact paid 15-25% less to fly a larger airplane. If it's "bashing" to use a calculator then I guess yeah, I'm guilty.
In a Saab the first flight of the day checks are things like autocoarsen checks, P3 check and a few other "prop" things that RJ guys dont have to worry about. The captain does them all, Im too new and too busy to be paying attention at this point.

But to be fair Mark they took away paying for those on the Saab side. Saab guys used to get 10 minutes for repoing the plane and then 10 minutes of credit for a run up. Then they get all cost-saving and built those into the block, and forced the checks to be done with pax on board. Every captain I have flown with however has said "funny how the block didnt change though..."
 

Clocks

Well-Known Member
In a Saab the first flight of the day checks are things like autocoarsen checks, P3 check and a few other "prop" things that RJ guys dont have to worry about. The captain does them all, Im too new and too busy to be paying attention at this point.

But to be fair Mark they took away paying for those on the Saab side. Saab guys used to get 10 minutes for repoing the plane and then 10 minutes of credit for a run up. Then they get all cost-saving and built those into the block, and forced the checks to be done with pax on board. Every captain I have flown with however has said "funny how the block didnt change though..."
Grats on IOE dude.

And for the love of god use more paragraphs in your blog! /wall of text! :panic::D
 

meritflyer

Well-Known Member
I have been doing some thinking. People LOVE bashing Colgan and quite frankly it is uncalled for.

Yes we have our issues, however, to bash us as 'undercutters' etc is quite uncalled for.
You said yourself not long ago that non-union airlines undercut union carries. You included Colgan.

Do you want to find the post or should I?
 

meritflyer

Well-Known Member
Let me save you the trouble, Seggy.

Seggy December 23 said:
WOW, JUST, WOW

Don't know where to begin but let me say this.

Colgan DOES undercut the industry. Competition on routes does not matter. If an airlines rates on 34 seat aircraft are low, it gives management a leg up when negoitiating 50 seat aircraft rates.
Followed by:

SmitteyB said:
Colgan undercuts NO ONEs contract.
Seggy than replies:
Seggy said:
Smittey YOU are the one off base here. We do undercut everyone else with our rates. Did you read "Flying the Line?", until you do I suggest you keep quiet on saying we don't undercut anyone.
So, which is it?
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
Union or non union doesn't so much matter in this case.

When CJ was just a SAAB/1900 operator they weren't hurting any body's rates. That all went out the door with the Q. You guys are killing the industry rate right now. Not to mention seriously risking hurting RJ rates for seat lift (which in turn hurt 737/190 rates).

It's not a bash... it's a reality.

EDIT:

You guys are cool with me, as long as ya stay outta ATL:D
I know that this was posted sort of in jest, but you do realize that it's not all about you. I mean, it's great you don't give a damn what they do to the rest of the industry as long as they don't touch your corner of it.
 

sherpa

Well-Known Member
Up to this point Colgan hasn't mattered. But they may be starting to matter now. It is what CJC does from this point forward that they can control.
 

Seggy

Well-Known Member
You said yourself not long ago that non-union airlines undercut union carries. You included Colgan.

Do you want to find the post or should I?
You waited to soon to post it man. I would have, but was out enjoying some adult drinkies.

Nonunion carriers do undercut the industry. As well as the best paid RJ operators.

Let me save you the trouble, Seggy.



So, which is it?
What it is, is that yes nonunion and RJ operators who are operating routes that used to be mainline flying ARE undercutting the industry. My post was to point out that a lot of anger/frustration has been pointed to Colgan guys/gals. That is not fair my friend. Your former company was doing service that a few years ago was done by mainline, mine as well. We share the blame in this. Furthermore, I am dealing a lot with guys on the fence who are not sure how they are going to vote in a few months, either for ALPA or the IBT. To be chastised by guys as the ONLY undercutters is not fair to us before the vote and makes it harder.

Does that make sense or do you need me to clarify what I said more?


Union or non union doesn't so much matter in this case.

When CJ was just a SAAB/1900 operator they weren't hurting any body's rates. That all went out the door with the Q. You guys are killing the industry rate right now. Not to mention seriously risking hurting RJ rates for seat lift (which in turn hurt 737/190 rates).

It's not a bash... it's a reality.
Very well said. No one gave a flying flip about us when we where flying 1900s and Slaabs. In a way a lot of us never wished we where bought out. It would have made life simpler. I would have been a slaab commander out of IAH enjoying my don't mess with Texas layovers. But the Colgan family did what they felt was necessary to keep us employed. And in a way I am glad they did.

We are hurting the rates, badly is an understatement. But, if you look at our pay rules, what we can work out at times, it is not all that bad.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Evil Landlord Capitalist
but the more and more I talk to other people at other airlines, things really are on par with other airlines, if not better.
You know I love ya, Seggy, but I think you've had one too many adult beverages before posting. The things I've heard from CJC pilots (including yourself) about your daily operation are things I've never heard from any other 121 airline in the country. It amazes me what goes on over there.
 

greaper007

Well-Known Member
Seggy, you were stuck all day at BDL and you didn't give me a call? What's the deal, you didn't want to hang out with an FO and his pregnant wife?
 

jynxyjoe

The Kickin' Chicken!
I do bash CJC because of how they treat their people, and thats why I left. However, I have also bashed them for their pay, but don't know if I've specifically said "undercutter".

Since I found out about furloughs and possibly even more loss of flying (if I'm reading the new posts correctly) I've tried to be as supportive as I can without being nice for nice sake. I hope it gets better at Colgan for the employees sake.

As far as pay goes, I'll give CJC more credit for paying their pilots when there is a contract backing up the pay. Quite frankly all we ever did at CJC was bully the schedulers into giving us the pay we should have had because we knew there were only 1 or 2 on duty at night when we were done. Screw scheduling did whatever we bugged them about so it would free up a phone line. Seggy is a master at this, because he's an uncommonly bright guy. When (if) CJC gets a contract, I and many others MAY feel differently.

Seggy, it sounds to me like you are just tired and frustrated and happy to have a job in this economic climate and wish everyone would get off your back about it. Assuming that, I think its a fair request. You were a hell of a pilot and a hell of a co-worker and you deserve a break from everyone. I think it is important to say that my attacks on CJC have to do with your boys down in Manasses (specifically George "notmybuddy" Casey), not you personally.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to get back to making more money as a first year Captain at Mesaba than I ever would have even if I stayed at CJC and kept my longevity. That is, unless the guy who replaced me for the Beech upgrade class has made it to the Q. Then I'd simply shoot myself because I'd be back in EWR again, then I'd make no money, thus solving my equation.

All the best luck friend.
 

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
You waited to soon to post it man. I would have, but was out enjoying some adult drinkies.

Nonunion carriers do undercut the industry. As well as the best paid RJ operators.



What it is, is that yes nonunion and RJ operators who are operating routes that used to be mainline flying ARE undercutting the industry. My post was to point out that a lot of anger/frustration has been pointed to Colgan guys/gals. That is not fair my friend. Your former company was doing service that a few years ago was done by mainline, mine as well. We share the blame in this. Furthermore, I am dealing a lot with guys on the fence who are not sure how they are going to vote in a few months, either for ALPA or the IBT. To be chastised by guys as the ONLY undercutters is not fair to us before the vote and makes it harder.
There's that statement again. I could have guessed that was coming out. A thread like this pops up and like clockwork, you echo this same sentence to some degree.

I'd like you to give me an example of a route served once by mainline now served by a RJ. Then I'd love to hear the explanation why it would be better to fly that route with a larger aircraft instead of a RJ.

It has been proven when it was proven too much they can't fill a 737 from LAX to GTF. Keeping these routes on mainline would have been possible if pilots wouldn't have given up scope, or they were willing to accept less pay for smaller aircraft flying. It's gone, it won't ever be the same so quit singing the same tune over and over again. It does no good and makes you sound ignorant.

Do you understand business?
 
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