Beechcraft Premier

MOGuy424

MOGuy424

Well-Known Member
Hoping to have a question answered with this thread everybody. My current company owns a fleet of these guys and recently have asked me to start flying copilot when I'm not on the citation in order to get my flight times up to ATP standards. I'm wondering however if I can in anyway log this time since I am not typed in this jet AND because it is a single pilot jet. They have thrown around, what I would say is a theory, and told me I can log it as total time and say its toward my ATP training/rating even though I cannot log it as PIC or SIC since it is in fact a single pilot type jet.
I am planning on calling a FSDO to talk with them and see if this is legitimate before i agree to start doing a bunch of trips in this plane as I'm not willing to sit right seat without some sort of incentive or compensation. I've already done a few and it really is a cool plane, I just don't want to have some employer down the road look at my books and say "oh this Premier time, yeah, doesn't amount to jack".

If anyone could help me find out more info I'd greatly appreciate this.

Thanks!
 
If you can't log it (I can't give an opinion without more information), it might still be good experience.

Edit to add: What thread are you referencing in post #2?
 
My question is "how can you log time if you have no responsibilities?" Responsibilities being PIC or SIC being logged as well.

Perhaps I should log some jet time when jumpseating.
 
Maurus said:
My question is "how can you log time if you have no responsibilities?" Responsibilities being PIC or SIC being logged as well.

Perhaps I should log some jet time when jumpseating.
Click to expand...

I see your point, but the owners insurance requires to pilots, I guess I'll have to check the OPSPECS as well. On that note, while on these few trips I've done I have actually flown, not just throw the rollers and tweaking the radios, so while I may not have official PIC responsibilities, there are responsibilities.


SteveC said:
If you can't log it (I can't give an opinion without more information), it might still be good experience.

Edit to add: What thread are you referencing in post #2?
Click to expand...

Steve, hope that was the post you were looking for. It's has been good experience, I just don't to waste my time. I'm already getting jet experience as I'm pic typed on the citation v we fly and I can legally log pic and sic time. The premier has been good learning the difference between straight wing and swept wing jets, I just don't want to blindly go along with more trips, past the learning experience, only to have not been able to have any compensation for the time I contribute (I'm not being paid any extra for These trips, just the base salary for the citation, and their claim I can log it towards my ATP).
 
Insurance is not the regulating authority and has no say beyond the signed agreement for bending metal. Believe it or not, but they may take your time in the right seat of the Premier toward their experience requirements. This is why a second logbook is nice to have for your "other than FAA flight time" stuff.

61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(a) Training time and aeronautical experience.
Each person must document
and record the following time in a
manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience
used to meet the requirements for
a certificate, rating, or flight review of
this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required
for meeting the recent flight experience
requirements of this part.
(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes
of meeting the requirements of paragraph
(a) of this section, each person
must enter the following information
for each flight or lesson logged:
(1) General—
(i) Date.
(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.
(iii) Location where the aircraft departed
and arrived, or for lessons in a
flight simulator or flight training device,
the location where the lesson occurred.
(iv) Type and identification of aircraft,
flight simulator, flight training
device, or aviation training device, as
appropriate.
(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required
by § 91.109(b) of this chapter.
(2) Type of pilot experience or training—
(i) Solo.
(ii) Pilot in command.
(iii) Second in command.
(iv) Flight and ground training received
from an authorized instructor.
(v) Training received in a flight simulator,
flight training device, or aviation
training device from an authorized
instructor.
(3) Conditions of flight—
(i) Day or night.
(ii) Actual instrument.
(iii) Simulated instrument conditions
in flight, a flight simulator, flight
training device, or aviation training
device.
Click to expand...
If you are unable to log any of the bolded how can you log the rest and use it toward an ATP?
 
What about this?

FAR 91.51
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;

(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—

( 1 ) Preflight preparation;

( 2 ) Preflight procedures;

( 3 ) Takeoff and departure;

( 4 ) In-flight maneuvers;

( 5 ) Instrument procedures;

( 6 ) Landings and approaches to landings;

( 7 ) Normal and abnormal procedures;

( 8 ) Emergency procedures; and

( 9 ) Postflight procedures;

(C) The supervising pilot in command holds—

( 1 ) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or

( 2 ) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and

(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.
 
MOGuy424 said:
(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—
Click to expand...

Chances are your flight department does not have one.
 
For anyone interested,

I just spoke with our POI on the point of logging time in this particular airplane due to insurance requirements and his response:

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted. (Conducted under Regulation Sec. 61.55(a), pay attentions to operations vs. regulations)

Sec. 61.55 — Second-in-command qualifications.

(a) A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crew member (according to our POI the emphasis here is operations and not regulations) only if that person holds:

(1) At least a private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and
(2) An instrument rating or privilege that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR; and
(3) The appropriate pilot type rating for the aircraft unless the flight will be conducted as domestic flight operations within United States airspace. (So no international stuff, you can still go, just cant log it)
 
Yeah. You would be surprised how many FSDOs don't know the regs. Before I found the LOIs the CLE FSDO said you couldn't log time if the aircraft requires an endorsement. The LOIs say otherwise. I'll dig up a LOI for you that spells out the situation.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
Maurus said:
Yeah. You would be surprised how many FSDOs don't know the regs. Before I found the LOIs the CLE FSDO said you couldn't log time if the aircraft requires an endorsement. The LOIs say otherwise. I'll dig up a LOI for you that spells out the situation.
Click to expand...

Exactly. I wouldn't trust anything other than an LOI from legal. FSDO's seem to want to make up the rules as they go.
 
MOGuy424 said:
For anyone interested,

I just spoke with our POI on the point of logging time in this particular airplane due to insurance requirements and his response:

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted. (Conducted under Regulation Sec. 61.55(a), pay attentions to operations vs. regulations)

Sec. 61.55 — Second-in-command qualifications.

(a) A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crew member (according to our POI the emphasis here is operations and not regulations) only if that person holds:

(1) At least a private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and
(2) An instrument rating or privilege that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR; and
(3) The appropriate pilot type rating for the aircraft unless the flight will be conducted as domestic flight operations within United States airspace. (So no international stuff, you can still go, just cant log it)
Click to expand...


Here is your LOI. Only way you can log SIC is under Part 135 and not using the auto-pilot.

And look at the use of the word "operation" in the LOI. They are talking about part 91 and 135 type of stuff.
 
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