ATC at Fault in Pan Am Seminole Crash

aloft

aloft

New Member
Just plain sad. Most of SoCal's controllers are top-notch, but it just goes to show you anyone can make a mistake. Lesson learned: THINK before accepting an ATC instruction, then think again.

Preliminary report:

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NTSB Identification: LAX04FA205
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Monday, May 10, 2004 in Julian, CA
Aircraft: Piper PA-44-180, registration: N304PA
Injuries: 2 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On May 10, 2004, about 2100 Pacific daylight time, a Piper PA-44-180, N304PA, collided with mountainous terrain during cruise at Julian, California. Pan Am International Flight Academy was operating the airplane under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. Both private pilots were fatally injured, and the airplane was destroyed. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and an instrument flight rules (IFR) flight plan had been filed. The personal flight originated at Phoenix Deer Valley Airport, Phoenix, Arizona, around 1830.

The two pilots were on a routine IFR flight from Phoenix Deer Valley to McClellan-Palomar Airport, Carlsbad, California. Initial review of air traffic control (ATC) communications and radar data indicate that the airplane was traveling west, approaching the Julian VOR at 8,000 feet. The airplane descended to 5,200 feet in response to an ATC instruction. The airplane impacted trees on a 5,500-foot ridgeline, 668 feet southeast of the Julian VOR.

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I know. The Socal controllers are usually pretty good. The controller should have been aware of the hight terrain. But on the other hand it is the PIC's responsibilty for the safe flight of the aircraft. He should have noted the MORA or MEA for his route of flight and told the controller that he could not comply with ATC instructions to descend. It sucks that it ended out the way it did.
frown.gif
 
Ouch, VMC even.

I nearly got vectored into a Piper Aerostar north of Louisville a few years ago.

ATC insisted that we climb to 11,000, but visually and on the TCAS it looked like we would lose separation. ATC insisted that the traffic was at 12,000. The captain said, "Well, all indications that we have is that the..." WHOOOOSH!

Holy crap! That Aerostar seemed a lot closer than 2,000 above and it was perfect horizontal path convergeance.

ATC says "Piper (whatever) say altitude?"

"Ahh, we're cruising at 11,000..."

Needless to say, the voice of the controller changed (was probably replaced) and we recieved an apologetic call at our next stop.

If it doesn't look right, hey, you're pilot-in-command, exercise the authority and responsibility.
 
If you're on vectors, you can't depend on MEAs or MOCAs. Approaching Palomar from the east, they'll usually turn you to intercept the extended localizer and descend you. What's important here is the MVA for that area of his sector, which the pilot wouldn't have known.
 
Is this within the MSA of the approach plate? Never mind the fact that in VMC they should have seen the terrain coming, but the MSA should've been a clue. I have a tendency to question alt's bellow MSA around here, not b/c of terrain but b/c there are a million and one radio and cel phone towers in the area.
 
I am unfamiliar with the territory and I am just finishing my IFR training, so I'll be the crazy one to ask, but how in VMC does one run into the ridge. How would you not be able see the ridge? If they had noticed, would you just tell ATC, Negative, that will put us into the ridge. I am jsut trying to understand how one runs into a mountain ridge in VMC.
 
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Is this within the MSA of the approach plate? Never mind the fact that in VMC they should have seen the terrain coming, but the MSA should've been a clue. I have a tendency to question alt's bellow MSA around here, not b/c of terrain but b/c there are a million and one radio and cel phone towers in the area.

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The MSA for the ILS (if that's what they were doing) is based off of OCN VOR, which is more than 25nm from Julian.

I tend to think that it might have been VMC during cruise, but they ended up descending into the marine layer shortly before impact. I couldn't say for sure of course, but this is the time of year for it in Socal, even as far east as Julian.
 
2100 local time. Possibly after dark, and those ridges can be tough to see with no lights unless you happen to see distant lights go out as they disappear behind the ridge. I don't know what time it gets dark in that area at that time of year, and I'm unfamiliar with the area so this is just a guess....
 
They didn't descend into the marine layer at 5500 feet, and not over a ridge. Nevermind the fact that the report says VMC prevailed. And while MEA and MOCA may not tell you, MORA certainly will. With the limited information available, I come up with the following plausible situation. One pilot is under the hood, and the other is watching the PF's scan. Neither is looking outside throughout the descent. Bang. Sad on all fronts. Avoidable, yes. Something from which to learn.
 
Wasn't there talk on one of the threads that there was another Pan Am plane with similar call sign on freq? Confusion by *someone* resulting in the wrong plane taking (or being given) a descent clearance?

Sorry if I'm perpetuating rumors, but that is a more plausible scenario to me than ATC just plain vectoring someone into terrain.
 
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2100 local time. Possibly after dark,

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Very good point, I know it is dark in here in MSP by then so that could well have been.
 
Just another little twist to the conversation.

VMC does not necessarily mean VFR.
 
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Just another little twist to the conversation.

VMC does not necessarily mean VFR.

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Yeah, but if you're VMC you're on the hook for see-and-avoid, so someone should be looking out the window for other planes, if not necessarily for terrain. Terrain avoidance is part of ATC's baliwick (in general terms, anyway) when you're IFR.
 
so we could be talking MVFR maybe. Does anyone recall if they went straight into the ridge or if it appeared they may have tried to climb at the last minute.
 
CRQ is my old stomping grounds. I did a lot of IAP's and flying all over the area. I can't remember the MORA, but the JLI VOR is at the top of the ridge just before you drop into the Imperial Valley. I usually fly over 9,500 when VFR to get over the mountain ridge, when I fly to PSP. Now depending if they were on an airway or getting vectors depends on the Minimum altitude. If you're not on an airway, you better be at MORA or above, to safely navigate. Remember, those controllers are sitting in an air conditioned building, sitting in front of a radar screen. You're the one in the cockpit. They'll go home at the end of the day either way! If they want you to go below MOCA, MEA, or MORA, tell them you can't comply. The FAR's give you that right as PIC.
 
I heard that the ATC accidentally gave the call sign of a regional airliner. People from other parts of the country are also very unfamiliar with the terrain just east of San Diego - it's very high.
 
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2100 local time. Possibly after dark, and those ridges can be tough to see with no lights unless you happen to see distant lights go out as they disappear behind the ridge. I don't know what time it gets dark in that area at that time of year, and I'm unfamiliar with the area so this is just a guess....

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At that time it got dark at about 8pm. Unfortunately Julian area is very rural and when flying at night past the Julian VOR, where the wreckage was just 600 something feet away, you cannot see the terrain. There are no lights to use for altitude reference. I just did it about a month ago coming from PSP to CRQ in a Seneca and it is really scary to climb out of Palm Springs over those mountains because you cannot see the ridges.
 
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Both private pilots were fatally injured, and the airplane was destroyed. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and an instrument flight rules (IFR) flight plan had been filed.

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Hello? Anyone else see what is wrong here?
 
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Both private pilots were fatally injured, and the airplane was destroyed. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and an instrument flight rules (IFR) flight plan had been filed.

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Hello? Anyone else see what is wrong here?

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This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
 
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