ATC at Fault in Pan Am Seminole Crash

Sometimes you get vectored below the MVA and that's just the way that it is. I flew from Greenville, SC up to Knoxville, TN one very dark night, and in IMC about 75% of the flight. I was going to fly west and then catch the airway North because of the OROCA/MOCA but Atlanta Center offered me direct and told me that I would be above the MVA for the entire flight. I didn't trust them completely, but I took the clearance and simply verified with the controller that I was indeed about the MVA about ever 15 miles. After 50 of so miles I think he was getting irritated, but I'll take that!!

Very sad situation and I can't wait to find out more in the final report.
 
"304PA, the one that crashed, took a descent clearance that was inteneded for another '4PA."

If this is true, then it's not an ATC mistake but a pilot mistake.

ATC has a radar system called MSAW, minimum safe altitude warning. It sounds an alarm to the controller if the mode C readout of an aircraft descends below a safe altitude. MSAW can be inhibited by the controller to reduce nusiance warnings. Wonder if the controller got a warning before impact.

Larger aircraft have EGPWS systems that would have saved the day. It uses GPS position tied into a terrain database and will warn you if you're too low. There are numerous CFIT saves due to EGPWS. I think Garmin's latest handheld has this capability at just over $1000. Seems like a lot but what are two life's worth.....
 
Unless the controller simply said "4PA...descend and maintain 5,000". There is really no way to tell until the final report is published. Very sad.
 
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"304PA, the one that crashed, took a descent clearance that was inteneded for another '4PA."

If this is true, then it's not an ATC mistake but a pilot mistake.



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So does the thread title need to be modified? Wouldn't want to push an idea on the forum if it's inaccurate.
 
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Stan I was going on the NTSB report.

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Gotcha.

Just so everyone knows, preliminary NTSB reports are never used as "evidence" in a court of law.

The final factual reports can be.

HOWEVER, the Pobably Cause portion, where the investigator will say "It is this boards opinion that the crash occurred due to__________." is inadmissible by statute..

Summary: never rely on an NTSB report to draw conclusions as to what actually happened.
 
Thanks Stan!

I like it when you give us the aviation law side of things. Keep doing that - inquiring minds want to know!
 
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"304PA, the one that crashed, took a descent clearance that was inteneded for another '4PA."

If this is true, then it's not an ATC mistake but a pilot mistake.



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So does the thread title need to be modified? Wouldn't want to push an idea on the forum if it's inaccurate.

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I agree with that. This wasn't a crash in which ATC murdered someone.
 
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"304PA, the one that crashed, took a descent clearance that was inteneded for another '4PA."

If this is true, then it's not an ATC mistake but a pilot mistake.



[/ QUOTE ]

So does the thread title need to be modified? Wouldn't want to push an idea on the forum if it's inaccurate.

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I agree with that. This wasn't a crash in which ATC murdered someone.

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No...of course not. It is unfortunate that this happened, but when similair call signs are involved it is BOTH ATC and the pilots responsibilities to keep things straight.
 
If the aircraft callsigns in the area in the ended with 4PA, then shouldn't the ATC say the next available alpha-numerical value in the callsign to distinguish between the two so this would not happen? Wouldn't it still be the ATC's fault?

Very sad indeed. I offer my condolences to the pilots' family members.
 
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"304PA, the one that crashed, took a descent clearance that was inteneded for another '4PA."

If this is true, then it's not an ATC mistake but a pilot mistake.



[/ QUOTE ]

So does the thread title need to be modified? Wouldn't want to push an idea on the forum if it's inaccurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that. This wasn't a crash in which ATC murdered someone.

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ATC never murders people unless they intentionally did something like vector a person into a mountain. Murder implies an intentional act. Unless the controller is deranged, i doubt any ATC accidents were intentional. They are human like us, and human error is the leading cause of accidents. They've got to live their life knowing they caused an accident, and live with guilt associated with that. But to call them murderers is way off base. That's like calling a train driver who hits a car in a railroad crossing a murderer. Or a pilot who crashes with people. The 9/11 animals were murderers.
 
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"304PA, the one that crashed, took a descent clearance that was inteneded for another '4PA."

If this is true, then it's not an ATC mistake but a pilot mistake.



[/ QUOTE ]

So does the thread title need to be modified? Wouldn't want to push an idea on the forum if it's inaccurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that. This wasn't a crash in which ATC murdered someone.

[/ QUOTE ]

ATC never murders people unless they intentionally did something like vector a person into a mountain. Murder implies an intentional act. Unless the controller is deranged, i doubt any ATC accidents were intentional. They are human like us, and human error is the leading cause of accidents. They've got to live their life knowing they caused an accident, and live with guilt associated with that. But to call them murderers is way off base. That's like calling a train driver who hits a car in a railroad crossing a murderer. Or a pilot who crashes with people. The 9/11 animals were murderers.

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Umm, it's called sarcasm!
rolleyes.gif
I have a lot of respect for ATC. They keep me alive!
 
I think it goes to say that whether you're non-comm VFR or on an IFR flight plan, the responsibility lies with the pilot-in-command of the aircraft.

Whether or not it was ATC's fault, he could have taken a moment to verify the clearance. I think in an average four day trip, I may 'confirm' three or four altitudes, a few crossing limits and whatever else I'm not 100% clear on.

Got a question? Confirm!

Unclear? Confirm!

Don't feel 100% like betting ATC's answer on your life? Comfirm and verify!
 
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I believe one of our greatest Presidents said, "Trust, but verify"

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no, you've got it mixed up - that was Ronald Reagan that said that...
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I believe one of our greatest Presidents said, "Trust, but verify"

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If it was Regan who said that, I can't believe you think he is one of our greatest presidents. But, you are entitled to your opinion.
grin.gif
 
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I believe one of our greatest Presidents said, "Trust, but verify"

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no, you've got it mixed up - that was Ronald Reagan that said that...
grin.gif


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No such thing as a good GOP president.

I think that were all seeing evidence of that right now in the media.
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Matthew
 
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