ASAP for FO

granlistillo

granlistillo

Well-Known Member
Got a captain that will not fly the RNAV speeds despite it being on the plate and the training department instructions. We have had 4 Yellow TAs in two trips, and ATC has told us to expedite to 250 as spacing was getting bad. I have to watch to see if someone is coming up and have pleaded, shown the plate. Flew the RNAV profiles on my legs and hinted after hinted. The guy has a complex about being right to out it right and he if he didnt see it first it aint right. I had to literally hand him a plate that shows he had been putting in the wrong MAP altitude for 5 months after a revision. I don't want to get him in trouble, but I don't want to get violated too, just because he is what he is. Can I file an ASAP when despite my best efforts short of hostililty in the cockpit (with this guy it would be ascreaming match) and being accused of being insubordinate what can I do. I am to the point I think I will have to fill out an aSAP to CMOA. What can be done? He won't budge? Help I don't want to get violated. I don't want to be a horses rear, but really it is a concern. Help please
 
Thanks yes, I have though about it. Really hate to do that. More concerned about getting violated tomorrow. I think the last time charlotte called him, ANY captain would have asaped and it would have been inadvertant. Our guidance is that that booth need to file an ASAP to be covered.
I mean he doesnt care. Two calls, 4 ras (he climbs much faster at a slower speed) so we got guys overhead we are bothering and guys behind us crawling up our butt. If the controller didn't call us (one time) or I didn't catch it on TCAS there could have been a separation issue. I don't think I told him so 30 times will work. :( There are some other issues to, but I really don't rate being drug through it.
 
Dude, I would call Pro Standards ASAP and fill out an ASAP form ASAP. You're scared to get a guy in trouble that could possibly, and probably get you violated? I've been hearing stories about guys getting violated all the time these days by ATC, and if you don't do something you'll be doing the same carpet dance that your captain is in front of your Chief and possibly the FAA.
 
granlistillo said:
Thanks yes, I have though about it. Really hate to do that. More concerned about getting violated tomorrow. I think the last time charlotte called him, ANY captain would have asaped and it would have been inadvertant. Our guidance is that that booth need to file an ASAP to be covered.
I mean he doesnt care. Two calls, 4 ras (he climbs much faster at a slower speed) so we got guys overhead we are bothering and guys behind us crawling up our butt. If the controller didn't call us (one time) or I didn't catch it on TCAS there could have been a separation issue. I don't think I told him so 30 times will work. :( There are some other issues to, but I really don't rate being drug through it.
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You need to file an ASAP. Trust me. Is it really in your ASAP MOU that both crew members need to file for coverage? I have never seen one like that. Regardless, any Event Review Team with an ounce of common sense will accept your report.
 
granlistillo said:
Thanks all. Hopefully it just goes away:(
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Nope. Don't take that attitude. You might not get violated, but somewhere, sometime, this guy's attitude WILL get someone other than himself violated. Pro Stands needs to get involved for sure, and if I were the FO, I'd ASAP it as well. I filed ASAPs as an FO in certain situations. The rumor that both pilots have to ASAP it for it to count is false.
 
Pro Stans is there for this very issue, some may not like to make that phone call (I have yet to do it myself) but many times there are APD's and Check Airmen on the cmte to deal with this very issue. It's both of your certs and not worth fighting the FAA when you have a way out. Call and voice your concerns. The fact that you have shown said CA the plate and he refuses the new way does not make it right. I know I have personally gone out of certain airports (ATL rings a bell) where our company procedures are amended via CCI (company) for the airport and many times a simple "hey, I have a question on the brief; company plates say 250 out of 1000AGL and the RNAV depicts it as well" gets a "O, didnt see that! Standard stuff but we will do 250 out of 1000AGL". Pro Stans is the professional way to deal with this issue, other avenues (such as FAA or the company) may not be a favorable or professional avenue. Give it a shot, worst case the CA won't buy you the starbucks on a turn but it covers BOTH of your tails going forward if he does it correctly.
 
Ya know, people can flame away, but the only thing that fixes this crap is you call the DO and say your done flying with the guy. Around here it's the only thing that throws up the red flags, and it works. Your mileage may vary.
 
stuckingfk said:
Reading this makes me think you don't belong in the cockpit either. Grow a pair and do what you have to do to get this guy some help before you're violated.
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:rolleyes: OK thanks for the support
You are missing somethings there. I was expressing a natural desire that he would come to his senses. But I can see it is not happening. There is other stuff too. He can not get "help" because he is superpilot. I also have been able to get along with every other captain I have ever flown with and never been through this situation.
 
Since the pilot continues to disregard printed procedures after being made aware of them, the actions are no longer unintentional but rather deliberate. Deliberate and willful violations are generally NOT accepted by an ASAP program.

Definitely pro standards is an option. How about talking with a Chief Pilot? You could also refuse to fly with the other pilot---be sure to discuss your reasons with the Chief Pilot.
 
granlistillo said:
:rolleyes: OK thanks for the support
You are missing somethings there. I was expressing a natural desire that he would come to his senses. But I can see it is not happening. There is other stuff too. He can not get "help" because he is superpilot. I also have been able to get along with every other captain I have ever flown with and never been through this situation.
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This is an advantage of PBS--I rarely fly with one captain more than once in a month, and I have a "bid avoid" if I find one I don't like.

I would definitely go to pro standards like yesterday. File an ASAP if you have to (tell him you're going to). CYA'ing at this point trumps cockpit pleasantness.
 
Pilot Hopeful said:
Definitely pro standards is an option. How about talking with a Chief Pilot? You could also refuse to fly with the other pilot---be sure to discuss your reasons with the Chief Pilot.
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Before he takes this too far, I would say start with pro standards... that's what it's there for. Although it sounds like the CA needs some attitude adjusting, there is no need to make it into a management issue at this point, IMO.
 
Drop me a message on FB or email if you want to, but you do need to do something about it. Pro Stands is a start. They probably won't be able to do much about it, but at least it will get in the pipeline. ASAP is good too. Honestly the best thing you can do, if you really feel that it is an issue, is remove yourself from the trip. Call WB or JR and tell them you don't feel comfortable flying with this guy and you won't do it any more and that they can either place you out on sick leave, reassign you other flying or some other option.

Not the easiest thing to do but if you feel that strongly about it, you need to man up and do it. Bitching on a webboard doesn't solve any problems.

And Justin, yes, we require both pilots to file an ASAP for both people to be covered. It's mostly because people were filing really dumb ASAPs and this was the Fed's way of cutting down on dumb stuff.
 
BobDDuck said:
And Justin, yes, we require both pilots to file an ASAP for both people to be covered. It's mostly because people were filing really dumb ASAPs and this was the Fed's way of cutting down on dumb stuff.
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Oops. I just ASSumed PSA did it the same way we do. Live and learn.
 
kellwolf said:
Oops. I just ASSumed PSA did it the same way we do. Live and learn.
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Interesting, I learned something new, too. However, I almost guarantee you that the ERT would accept his report. The CA is guilty of intentional disregard, but the FO would be okay at this point.

Granlistillo:

It is critical that you do something, and not just for your certificate. I know it's much easier said than done, but just think about putting your family/friends behind this guy. You need to advise him of your intent (outside of the cockpit), call Pro Standards, and if needed, remove yourself from the trip.
 
I echo the comments on Pro Standards, then bidding around the guy.

A good F/O catches the Capts mistakes and, if necessary, proves him wrong by backing up his argument with facts. You did that with respect to the RNAV speeds and the MAP altitude. A Capt who can't admit he's wrong, and continues to do the wrong thing, in spite of clear evidence, doesn't belong in the seat. Someone like this is the reason Pro Standards even exists.
 
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