ASA direct track checkride PASSED!

badco99

badco99

New Member
WHEW...Well, after about three months of training we finally had our checkride yesterday and we all passed. Pretty much what we expected and we were able to get through everything he threw at us. Few little things here and there, but just the usual stuff you'd expect on a checkride.

Still no word on when they are going to start classed back up in ATL, but the guy from ASA was pretty optimistic it would be soon. They have a lot of guys that are moving onto the majors, so we'll just have to wait and see. Like he said, one day they have everything on hold and don't know what's going to happen, the next day they are saying hire as fast as you can. Just the way the industry works.

So now its basically a waiting game. My partner worked the ramp for ASA so he's going to do that while he waits. Not sure exactly what the other guys are doing. One lives in ATL so he's going back there, and the other one is planning on moving up there when his wife gets job there just so they can get established while he waits and not have to worry about it later. And I'm looking into some job options at FSA while I wait.

In other news all four of the TSA people passed and started ground school this week. Apparently they are going to see how they do in training before they take anyone else. Haven't heard much about Eagle and ExpressJet, but sounded like one of them will be doing interviews soon.

Overall I think it was a great program and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it. Great instructors and a great learning experience.
 
"So now its basically a waiting game"

Maybe you could get a CFI job while you wait.

Are you locked into ASA or could you get hired at Express Jet?
 
I could look around for a CFI job, but it's really not something I want to do. With that in mind I think students should have someone who wants to be there and I dont, especially knowing I'm only going to be there for a few months.

As for EpressJet, if I interviewed on my own I probably could, but I don't have the time. And having gone through the program with ASA that is not an option. Has something to do with the contract between the airlines and FSA. You can only interview at one airline at a time for that matter. I'm just going to work and rent when I can. Also told the sims guys I was going to be here and if they needed someone to sit in to give me a call.
 
meritflyer said:
Not to stir the pot or try to take any credit where credit is due but is FSA direct track PFJ?
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Not intending to jump in on this question here, but the answer is no. Badco99 is probably better qualified to state the specifics, but unlike PFJ, no one is *guaranteed* a job just because you *pay* for the training. The training standards are very high, and when push comes to shove, if you wash out because you can't pass the PTS for the training, you're out of the money - ASA's not going to bring you in just because you paid for the training, nor will FSA allow you to continue training for that matter.

My .02 on the matter
 
psalm91 said:
Not intending to jump in on this question here, but the answer is no. Badco99 is probably better qualified to state the specifics, but unlike PFJ, no one is *guaranteed* a job just because you *pay* for the training. The training standards are very high, and when push comes to shove, if you wash out because you can't pass the PTS for the training, you're out of the money - ASA's not going to bring you in just because you paid for the training, nor will FSA allow you to continue training for that matter.

My .02 on the matter
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You're right, it's not pay for a job or training, but it's still a sleazy way to get a job. Basically these guys pay 25 large for an interview that they would normally never get with their experience. The interview that they do get is no where near what everyone else gets. Badco99 said it a couple of posts ago when he said that ExpressJet wouldn't hire him with the times he has.......I personally think it's a pretty immoral and selfish thing to do. When you can't get an interview without paying for it, you know it's not a good thing to do..
 
Hmmm...."immoral and selfish" are pretty strong words, and I guess you are entitled to your opinion. Honestly, I think programs like Direct Track, Embry Riddle's CAPT program, etc. etc. are nothing more than direct-relevance (i.e. training in the jet you're actually going to fly, vs. a cessna 172), situationally correct (again, jet performance vs. piston) training. True, it is a privilege that must be paid for....and not everyone can afford it, but oh well.

From my own perspective I don't view something that is customer-need based (FSA trains according to their customer's standards, not FSA's), and encouraged and supported by the prospective employer (the regional) to be selfish and immoral. It's like saying that people who get an on-line degree are somehow "cheating", because they aren't plugging away by physically attending a 4-year university...that of course, is nonsense. On-line degrees are becoming increasingly popular and supported by employers because people can get a good education and in a manner that doesn't disrupt the employee's work. The employee gets a degree, and the employer gets an employee who can contribute to the organization in an increased capacity...everyone wins. Like everything else there will always be the "dark" side of this evolution like diploma mills, but I am speaking of those instituitions that actually have a standard (i.e. accredited) and DO NOT just hand out diploma's and grades.

Similarly, I think that the PFT like anything else, can have its positives and negatives (e.g. Gulfstream and other egregiously bad examples of PFJ that harm the industry and potentially the passengers). Putting aside the presence of those types of companies and their apposite abuse of an otherwise decent idea, I think that PFT has come about as a way to address the evolving training needs of the regionals / airlines; akin to what I mentioned about how universities are attempting to address the changing educational needs. I personally am going the CFI route, but I am also not pursuing airlines. Yes, I believe that you can short change yourself in some ways via programs like direct track, because some things never take the place of experience, but I think that the positives (i.e. the student actually trains in the aircraft they will be flying, and learns the procedures and protocols of the employer they will be flying for) far outweigh the negatives; and evidently some ..not all... prospective employers feel the same way. I think for what ASA is trying to accomplish, and given the fact that FSA carries a lot of experience in training for the airlines, programs like Direct Track are a logical and timely extension of what FSA has been doing for years. The industry is changing and perhaps the training / preparation methods need to change with it.

That's my viewpoint for what it's worth :)
 
Hey...everyone's entitled to their opinions. Yes, the training is good and I probably would have benefitted if I went through my airline's training before the airline actually gave it to me. However, the way direct track folks attain the interview is what I have a problem with. If they sent their resumes in with everyone else, the resumes would get filed in the round basket. Signing an agreement with FlightSafety and a willingness to spend 25000 clams SHOULD NOT be the way people get interviews anywhere, much less airlines. I guess no one takes pride in being the best and accomplishing things based on their own merits and accomplishments. Why should they, when all they have to do is give someone money to be considered worthy?
 
"I don't view something that is customer-need based,...encouraged and supported by the prospective employer (the regional), to be selfish and immoral"

You haven't seen selfish and immoral until you become a pilot at a regional...

"I think that the PFT like anything else, can have its positives and negatives (e.g. Gulfstream and other egregiously bad examples of PFJ that harm the industry and potentially the passengers)"

Why is a 250 hour Gulfstream F/O any more likely to be harmful than a 250 hour FSA direct track F/O at ASA? I'd say less harmful cause things happen a lot slower in a 1900 than in a jet. How can you knock low time 121 crewmembers, as in Gulfstream, but think it's okay at ASA?

"The industry is changing and perhaps the training / preparation methods need to change with it."

The industry is changing and it's not for the better. Should the "training/preparation bar" be lowered as the rest of the airline career bar is lowered?

I can think of all kinds of reasons why ab initio is a bad way to enter this industry but it's all been said before, so I'll spare you...

By the way, please tell me that FSA direct entry guys still have to go through regular regional airline ground school like everyone else. I said as much at another thread where I was saying direct entry isn't PFT/PFJ.
 
launchpad said:
Hey...everyone's entitled to their opinions. Yes, the training is good and I probably would have benefitted if I went through my airline's training before the airline actually gave it to me. However, the way direct track folks attain the interview is what I have a problem with. If they sent their resumes in with everyone else, the resumes would get filed in the round basket. Signing an agreement with FlightSafety and a willingness to spend 25000 clams SHOULD NOT be the way people get interviews anywhere, much less airlines. I guess no one takes pride in being the best and accomplishing things based on their own merits and accomplishments. Why should they, when all they have to do is give someone money to be considered worthy?
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I see where you are coming from. I guess I don't know what to say, other than I would agree with your statement in the context of putting someone who has no business in the cockpit of a regional purely for the sake of paying for a program - that to me, is not right. However, I truly do not see FSA doing that. All of the pilots that I know in that program are fine pilots and there are certain standards that must be met before you can even gain entry into the program; they don't accept you simply because you can pay. Anyways point well taken.
 
DE727UPS said:
You haven't seen selfish and immoral until you become a pilot at a regional...
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lol...I guess that's why I'm not going regional to begin with :P

Why is a 250 hour Gulfstream F/O any more likely to be harmful than a 250 hour FSA direct track F/O at ASA? I'd say less harmful cause things happen a lot slower in a 1900 than in a jet. How can you knock low time 121 crewmembers, as in Gulfstream, but think it's okay at ASA?
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Not knocking low timers, only what I have observed about Gulfstream. It seems to me that Gulfstream's acceptance "bar" is the ability to pay the fees, and that is not the same as FSA. There are skill-set standards that must be met in order to get into the program. I think that this is where Launchpad also takes issue with these types of programs, but I think that there is a slight misunderstanding of how FSA approches this, vs. the "other" guy (and I'll confess right here, that I haven't spoke to the Gulfstream folks). The entry requirements for the program in FSA has something to do with being able to fly the Seminole to ATP standards, and there are some other things mixed in there, but I'm really not sure of the specifics.

Again, just because you can pay doesn't mean you are a shoe-in for the program. For example, even though I'm paying to get through my Comm/Multi/Instrument/CFI, FSA is not going to let me progress simply because I can pay. I have to pass several academic and flight standards before even being able to continue on to the next stage (and I'm not talking about the FAA checkride; this is in ADDITION to the FAA checkride) - and if you can't meet FSA standards...you will simply not be permitted to continue on with FSA. I'm not saying that FSA is going to dump you the second you blow it, they do everything they can to keep you going (because they have an obvious interest in keeping you there) but neither will they champion mediocrity. I'm not sure if that same standard is present at some other schools. I've seen the program reqs for DT and they are even higher than those of us in the peon stages - you unsat ONE lesson, and you're in front of a review board. And this is as it should be; it would be an embarassment, not to mention giving a very negative impression to a client, if FSA were just to take *anyone* into the DT program strictly on the basis of being able to fork over money.

The industry is changing and it's not for the better. Should the "training/preparation bar" be lowered as the rest of the airline career bar is lowered?
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Absolutely not. All I am saying is that the training is accepted and encouraged by the regional carrier. Whether we agree or disagree about the "method" of the training can always be debated, however I would think that the regional would know better than us what is working and what isn't working. They seem to be quite pleased with the quality of the training that FSA provides, from talking to them.

I can think of all kinds of reasons why ab initio is a bad way to enter this industry but it's all been said before, so I'll spare you...
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No big deal...I'm new to all of this. My perspectives are not perfect, nor are they replete with experience...they are just my perspectives.

By the way, please tell me that FSA direct entry guys still have to go through regular regional airline ground school like everyone else. I said as much at another thread where I was saying direct entry isn't PFT/PFJ.
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Yes, as I understand it, the FSA DT folks go through ground/sim here, and then once they actually pass the checkride with an ASA appointed check airman, they go through several weeks (I think it's 9) of indoc which is also ground and sim. Not sure of the ratio (ground to sim), but from what I understand from the ASA folks, it is very intensive.
 
Quite a few comments...I'll try and hit them all. Direct Track is not PFJ, but it is PFT. Now for the people commenting about interviewing, the only exception we are given is the TT required and we don't have to do the sim ride and that's because we have to pass the sim ride at the end anyway. As for everything else, I still had to meet FSA requirements, fill out an application with ASA, and I still had to go to ATL to interview. So if you think all I did was give FSA $22k you're wrong, I had to get a conditional offer of employment first. Oh, and at the end of the program you still have to pass the checkride. I know some guys had to take it twice, but after that you are SOL.

Times for the ExpressJet program is 400TT/100 multi I think, and Eagle wants 330TT. That's why I couldn't interview with them.

Yes, we still have to do ALL the training everyone else does when we get to the airline.

Yes, there are a lot of opinions about the subject. But I'll listen to the pilots with 25,000+hrs, some of who have retired, saying the program is excellent training. The instructors have even had the check airmen doing the checkrides tell them the students coming out of this program are a step ahead of some of the students finishing their training program. Just seems like a lot of people who don't like the program don't really know that much about it. They just see 250TT pilot, $22k and nothing else. Never flown with someone out of the program and don't know what the training entails. If you don't like the program that's fine, but at least fly with someone and learn more about the program first. Just my opinion...
 
"But I'll listen to the pilots with 25,000+hrs, some of who have retired, saying the program is excellent training"

I'll listen to the Capts that have to fly with a fresh 250 hour F/O.

"The instructors have even had the check airmen doing the checkrides tell them the students coming out of this program are a step ahead of some of the students finishing their training program."

I believe that. The only way you'd get through ASA's ground school as a 250 hour pilot is if you just paid to do a similar program before hand. It makes sense that after you repeat what you just did in ASA's ground school, that you'd be a step ahead. You'd better be otherwise you just wasted 22K.

My point has always been that ground school/sim doesn't prepare you very well for being a real life jet F/O in the real world. That's where one's experience outside the training enviornment helps fill in the blanks.

Just my opinion....
 
DE727UPS said:
"But I'll listen to the pilots with 25,000+hrs, some of who have retired, saying the program is excellent training"

I'll listen to the Capts that have to fly with a fresh 250 hour F/O.

"The instructors have even had the check airmen doing the checkrides tell them the students coming out of this program are a step ahead of some of the students finishing their training program."

I believe that. The only way you'd get through ASA's ground school as a 250 hour pilot is if you just paid to do a similar program before hand. It makes sense that after you repeat what you just did in ASA's ground school, that you'd be a step ahead. You'd better be otherwise you just wasted 22K.

My point has always been that ground school/sim doesn't prepare you very well for being a real life jet F/O in the real world. That's where one's experience outside the training enviornment helps fill in the blanks.

Just my opinion....
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Yah....That....

and we don't have to do the sim ride and that's because we have to pass the sim ride at the end anyway
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so after paying for the 20 or whatever hours in the sim, you're saying that it's just as tough to pass the sim eval if you haven't had an ounce of time in an rj or similar cockpit/aircraft? bad logic as far as I'm concerned. Put me in a big rig right now, and i'd probably crash. Send me to truck masters and I'll thread a needle with the thing.

and I still had to go to ATL to interview. So if you think all I did was give FSA $22k you're wrong, I had to get a conditional offer of employment first.
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Yep, you did have to go to an interview. But last I checked, they don't ask you about 121 regulations. They also don't give the direct track guys the "pressure cooker" treatment that everyone else gets. The interview that I'm familiar with for the direct track people only deals with part 91 regs and some basic instrument / jepp questions. Hmmmm.........big interview. The guy getting the opportunity to interview because he accrued the experience is getting a harder time....sounds to me like your interview isn't as hard as it should be.

The only reason you had the opportunity for this interview was because 1. you were willing to pay 25 grand to FSI. and 2. FSI big whigs and ASA big whigs have a long history of playing golf together. FSI thought it would be cool to make a lot of money and the regionals figured they'd save money on interviewing people by letting FSI do a lot of the legwork. Why deal with a substandard individual when the FSI can deal with it. Besides, being able to play golf in Vero Beach when a "meeting" is needed...is not a bad deal.

If you don't like the program that's fine, but at least fly with someone and learn more about the program first. Just my opinion...
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just for the record, I was attending FSI when the ASA program started. I was asked to instruct for the program when I instructed for the academy. I told them to pound sand. I know quite a bit about how the program started and what was involved with getting it to it's current place. I have flown with quite a few of the DT program guys (mostly evaluating them for one thing or another). Some were good, some were bad....just like every other pilot out there. Flying to ATP standards is not that hard, so don't get too proud of yourself. I've seen 85 hour Swiss ab-initio pilots fly to 0/0 standards. All it takes is a little concentration.

It all boils down to the fact that if you didn't give the money to FSI, you would have never been able to get that COE. (just to clarify, the COE doesn't come until you complete the interview AND 2 evaluation stages of your training). Plain and Simple. Your resume would be thrown into the trash can without so much as a chuckle.

DE727 has pretty much said everything else I wanted to say.....time to get back to my sub 24BPM heart rate...
 
I've hesitated to give you guys a perspective from the front lines, I know that can ruin some people's "view from the tower", but...

In my newhire class last year we had a good mix of prior 121, CFIs (very few), Gulfstream, 135 and a couple of FSI Direct Track grads.
The FSI and 121 (Pinnacle, ASA) guys were the four at the top of the class. Every pilot went through the same training program and only one didn't make it, the 135 guy. The Gulfstream, Colgan, and Military guys did very well. Unfortunately, the only pilots who had difficulty were the straight CFIs.

After being on the line, I'll admit it and say I've asked captain friends how flying with "_______(FSI grad or Gulfstream guy)" was, and I've never heard anything but good, usually GREAT. I've met and even flown with these FSI and GAI guys that you may think of as lesser pilots. They are all good pilots, and more importantly good people, not the scammers you may make them out to be.

I've said it before that I don't really care to spread opinion on this board because it doesn't mean as much as fact, however I find it hard to believe that some of you can have such a strong opinion of someone that you've never flown with, or even met!

Proof may be in what I've experienced here with these people. You can tally this up to a freak accident, or just choose to keep your close-minded opinion of these poeple if that makes you happy. Just because a program is not right for you, it doesn't mean that it's bad for everybody.

So bottom line is, if you're a student pilot looking at this thread for another way to get to a regional, I wouldn't listen to everyone, first-hand accounts go a long way.
 
Shorefly,

Thanks for giving an opinion which is at least positive. It's nice to hear from the other side for a change.
 
Shorefly...

I never mentioned anything about skill, the only thing I don't like about any of these programs is the fact that people pay to take the easy way out. I know quite a few people who have gone through these programs...good people, yes. good pilots, yes. Do I agree with their decision to not work hard to reach their goal, absolutely not. Read my above post, I've flown with many of these pilots...some are good, some are bad. I've flown with extremely low time guys that can fly better than anyone I've seen. It's all a matter of pride in this profession. If you're not willing to work hard to get to where you're going, how can you be proud to be a pilot?

You can compare it to a Carpenter who has done an apprenticeship and spent years perfecting and honing his skills vs. going to home depot at 8 in the morning and yelling "cuanto, cuanto". That guy can do the work, but the final product is nowhere near a professional, clean cut, perfectly done job.

I disagree with these programs and the people who buy into them because they have no pride in their profession, nor do they have respect for what they are doing. (For the most part)
 
"not the scammers you may make them out to be"

How can doing PFJ a la Gulfstream not make you a scammer? I'll admit that some of them might be good pilots but they are all scammers. And no, I'm not putting FSA in the same light. I don't consider FSA PFJ or PFT.

"if you're a student pilot looking at this thread for another way to get to a regional, I wouldn't listen to everyone, first-hand accounts go a long way"

There are some reasons that ab-initio is a bad way to enter this career. I'm not saying it doesn't work sometimes but you're taking a big risk with a large amount of money. If you're cool with that, then knock yourself out.

So I'm close minded cause I think 250 hour guys don't belong in a regional jet? I mention this stuff to the guys I work with an they can't believe it. I guess there's a lot of close minded airline pilots out there. Maybe it's the start of a brave new world in aviation, buying your way into the career rather than earning it, I hope not.

Oh, by the way, the CFI's will be playing catch up with a fast paced regional ground school. Those that paid for a program like FSA or Gulfstream have an expensive head start. Like I said, though, get a guy out on the line and I'd take someone with real life experience over someone who did good in the sim any day.

"I've hesitated to give you guys a perspective from the front lines, I know that can ruin some people's "view from the tower"

Nice to hear your opinion. I'd like it better if more Capts that have to fly with these guys come on here and say what they think. Bog posted the other day about flying with some 400 hour guy and feeling like he was alone in a tough situation. My buddy who was a checkairman at Mesa has some good stories, too.
 
DE727UPS said:
I'd like it better if more Capts that have to fly with these guys come on here and say what they think.
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:yeahthat:

And if you think I haven't worked hard to get through this program you are dead wrong. And I'll propaply have to work harder when I get to ATL.
 
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