Article: FAA won't back 1500 hour requirement

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http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/889570.html

FAA won't back training requirements pushed by Flight 3407 families

By Jerry Zremski
NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF
Updated: December 10, 2009, 10:34 AM /

WASHINGTON — The head of the Federal Aviation Administration today signaled that the agency will not back the Families of Continental Flight 3407 in their call for a dramatic increase in pilot experience requirements in wake of the crash that claimed the lives of 50 in Clarence in February.

In written testimony to be delivered at a Senate Commerce Commitee hearing today, FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt said the agency is rewriting a proposal that it released earlier this year, which would have boosted the number of flight hours new pilots must have.

"The final rule will be consistent with the philosophy of enhancing the quality and effectiveness of training rather than focusing on traditional quantitative measures such as total flight time," Babbitt said in the testimony.

The Flight 3407 families, who have been pushing for legislation requiring that new pilots have 1,500 flight hours before they can fly passengers, obtained a copy of the written testimony and were livid at what they saw.

"Once again, it looks like corporate lobbying dollars are going to win out over the average citizens," said Scott Maurer, who lost his daughter, Lorin, in the crash.

Maurer noted that the aviation industry has been lobbying strongly against the proposed increase in pilot training.

Babbitt argued that basing training requirements merely on the basis of flight hours was not the best way to guarantee that pilots are adequately trained.

He said the FAA is looking at ways to make sure pilots receive specialized training in exposure to icing, multiple-pilot operations and other facets of commercial aviation.

"We view this option as being more targeted than merely increasing the number of total flight hours required, because it will be obvious to the carrier what skills an individual pilot has, rather than relying on an assumption that a certain number of hours has resulted in a comprehensive set of skills," Babbitt said.

That argument didn't wash with the Flight 3407 families.

Susan Bourque, who lost her sister, Beverly Eckert, in the crash, said Babbitt's proposal to rewrite the rules sounded as if it could take six to eight years to complete.

"How many crashes for the regional airlines is it going to take before our government does something?" Bourque said. "Evidently, six in a row is not enough."

About 35 members of the families group, most clad in red, gathered this morning for the Senate hearing.

Sen. Byron Dorgan, the North Dakota Democrat who chairs the Senate Aviation Subcommittee, praised the families for pushing the FAA and lawmakers to make changes to improve aviation safety.

"I'm convinced that their relentless actions ... will end up saving lives," Dorgan said.

Hopefully this isn't a re-post.

The section I highlighted in red is a valid point which we seem to miss sometimes. A lot of people here built high quality time doing freight or another activity, some built it doing instrument instruction in a twin, and some people built it flying steep turns in a 152. Assuming the FAA can come up with training requirements that result in a "comprehensive set of skills" which will address the pitfalls which may have contributed to 3407 then their proposal will be better than simply "1500 hours and you're good to go" (which I doubt, it'll probably be a few more videos to watch in initial ground school).

 

[Dan208B]

"The final rule will be consistent with the philosophy of enhancing the quality and effectiveness of training rather than focusing on traditional quantitative measures such as total flight time," Babbitt

Translation: any problems during a training event in the future means you will be watched like a hawk and scrutinized even more.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Translation: any problems during a training event in the future means you will be watched like a hawk and scrutinized even more.

Well, really now even.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I for one am shocked! Shocked, I say! All the government money can buy...

 

[jynxyjoe]

I think that was the nice way of telling Chuckles Schumer to sit down. FAA: 1 Chuckles: 0.

 

[surreal1221]

Translation: any problems during a training event in the future means you will be watched like a hawk and scrutinized even more.

Which, we all know and have come to accept.

Can't cut it, then there are processes to make sure you can cut it, and if still after executing those processes, if you can not cut it, I can't say I don't think companies should have to hold onto under performing dead weight.

The problem isn't FO's who haven't met some arbitrary digit. . .

Fatigue mitigation is a far larger issue and one that might actually improve flight safety vs. a 1500tt requirement for FO's.

 

[subpilot]

If I had to choose only one improvement it would be the duty/rest requirements. It was tough with 14-15 hour days back to back with only 5-6 hours sleep in between those days.

 

[29.92inHg]

I wonder how much that change of heart cost someone.

 

[jhugz]

I wonder how much that change of heart cost someone.

Riddle has some deep pockets.

 

[MQAAord]

Fatigue mitigation is a far larger issue and one that might actually improve flight safety vs. a 1500tt requirement for FO's.

:clap:

Couldn't agree more.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Riddle has some deep pockets.

You sure on that jhugz? They haven't had "deep pockets" in a long time. Ever since the Dot Com bust they've been begging for money and upping tuition non-stop, selling land they own, increasing the size of the campus to create revenue... wait what am I saying. You have some sort of source obviously. I'm jumping the gun. Go right ahead.

Or is this conspiracy theory time again at JC? No wait... is it the one congressional rep, the rep of Daytona Beach and the county who is pushing the FAA from behind the scenes?

 

[kellwolf]

Which, we all know and have come to accept.

Can't cut it, then there are processes to make sure you can cut it, and if still after executing those processes, if you can not cut it, I can't say I don't think companies should have to hold onto under performing dead weight.

Depends on the rules and contract at the company. This is setting the table for places like, well, certain known regionals to clear out some seniority. Bad day in the sim? Well, you couldn't cut it. Take a hike. We're gonna upgrade the 2 year FO that costs half as much as you do.

I don't mind people watching pilots with consistent training issues, but there has to be a SYSTEM in place with guidelines to protect the pilots that have ligit bad days from getting canned because the company thinks they're overstaffed. I've got stories (some actually true) about some stuff that went down here after the "safety audit" came out. Some guys, more or less, brought it on themselves and needed the wake up call. Some guys were in the wrong place at the wrong time and got the wrath taken out on them.

 

[Nigel Croker]

Wait a minute, I thought we all wanted this 1500 hrs thing because it was going to raise pay and get me back to work tommorow..you mean it is supposed to be about safety????

In case you have to ask I'm being sarcastic

 

[surreal1221]

Depends on the rules and contract at the company. This is setting the table for places like, well, certain known regionals to clear out some seniority. Bad day in the sim? Well, you couldn't cut it. Take a hike. We're gonna upgrade the 2 year FO that costs half as much as you do.

I don't mind people watching pilots with consistent training issues, but there has to be a SYSTEM in place with guidelines to protect the pilots that have ligit bad days from getting canned because the company thinks they're overstaffed. I've got stories (some actually true) about some stuff that went down here after the "safety audit" came out. Some guys, more or less, brought it on themselves and needed the wake up call. Some guys were in the wrong place at the wrong time and got the wrath taken out on them.

Clearly.

It has to be a system of checks and balances of course, but as I said and I'm sure I'm not alone - I can't say I'd tell the company no they can not get rid of a pilot who has a chronic training issue. How long they allow that issue to persist without a change in learning, well, that's between your collective bargaining agent and company negotiators.

 

[Socal321]

Translation: any problems during a training event in the future means you will be watched like a hawk and scrutinized even more.

Well I think this is what this whole deal is about not flight time. The pilots of 3407 were not low timers.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Well I think this is what this whole deal is about not flight time. The pilots of 3407 were not low timers.

.... Depends who you ask. I think you mean to say "hired" as low timers, since the law was in reference to hiring practices. Marvin wasn't hired with much. Rebecca had a whole 1700 right?

Anyway, I don't think a total of 6k hours between the two pilots at the time of the crash is what they are trying to prevent. Thus the 1.5k hour requirement for hiring.

 

[Firebird2XC]

I think that the training requirements, the concept of requiring higher time first time 121 pilots, and pilot fatigue are not really interconnected.

While they certainly all influence the operation as a whole, you can't fix them all by changing any one specific instance.

Training requirements need a fresh look- some of them are outdated and somewhat inadequate. Others aren't really that true-to-life.

Pilot fatigue largely deals with schedule composition and an unwillingness of air carriers (passenger and otherwise) to acknowledge that burning pilots at both ends is not acceptable. Sheer survival instinct is probably the last safeguard in the cockpit- it's the sheer will to live that enables some to endure inspite of fatiguing schedules. To succumb to fatigue is tantamount to suicide in this profession.

As for the 1500 hour concept- it's clear that somebody in the business is pulling the FAA's strings. There's nothing good about that at all.

Ultimately, 1500 hours has no bearing on what the pilot did to gain it. It simply weeds out those that were spoon-fed through the initial training process.

Sure, you might still get someone who had a CFI hold their hand for that long, but it's far, far, less likely that the current state of things.

The 1500 hour is valid and necessary. We need a stable foundation to base our pilot labor pool upon. It's not the skill set which a pilot builds a safe flight on- it's just the foundation.

A house cannot stand without the foundation for very long, regardless.

 

[aloft]

Well I think this is what this whole deal is about not flight time. The pilots of 3407 were not low timers.

Nor is the issue of flight time solely about Colgan 3407. It's about the 250 TT wonders hired by the bottom feeders in the last hiring wave. Companies should not even have the OPTION of hiring someone with so little experience. Lowering the hiring mins has been the industry norm when the number of applicants dwindles. It SHOULD be improving pay/work rules to attract qualified applicants who are applying elsewhere. There is never an actual shortage of qualified pilots, only a shortage of qualified pilots willing to work for substandard wages.

Why is this so hard for people to understand? Wall Street comes right out and admits they need to pay large bonuses to attract and retain talent, why don't the airlines do the same? Because airline management thinks pilots are little more than trained monkeys. How do we change this perception? We can start by self-policing. Maybe that means cracking down on the gel-spiked, iPod-wearing, backpack-toting pilots and insisting that they start looking and acting like professionals instead of kids playing dress-up. Maybe it means cracking down on cockpit graffiti/porn. I don't know. What does professionalism in the cockpit mean to you?

 

[ready2fly]

I think that the training requirements, the concept of requiring higher time first time 121 pilots, and pilot fatigue are not really interconnected.

While they certainly all influence the operation as a whole, you can't fix them all by changing any one specific instance.

Training requirements need a fresh look- some of them are outdated and somewhat inadequate. Others aren't really that true-to-life.

Pilot fatigue largely deals with schedule composition and an unwillingness of air carriers (passenger and otherwise) to acknowledge that burning pilots at both ends is not acceptable. Sheer survival instinct is probably the last safeguard in the cockpit- it's the sheer will to live that enables some to endure inspite of fatiguing schedules. To succumb to fatigue is tantamount to suicide in this profession.

As for the 1500 hour concept- it's clear that somebody in the business is pulling the FAA's strings. There's nothing good about that at all.

Ultimately, 1500 hours has no bearing on what the pilot did to gain it. It simply weeds out those that were spoon-fed through the initial training process.

Sure, you might still get someone who had a CFI hold their hand for that long, but it's far, far, less likely that the current state of things.

The 1500 hour is valid and necessary. We need a stable foundation to base our pilot labor pool upon. It's not the skill set which a pilot builds a safe flight on- it's just the foundation.

A house cannot stand without the foundation for very long, regardless.

Hear Hear!!

 

[Socal321]

It SHOULD be improving pay/work rules to attract qualified applicants who are applying elsewhere. There is never an actual shortage of qualified pilots, only a shortage of qualified pilots willing to work for substandard wages.

Why is this so hard for people to understand? Wall Street comes right out and admits they need to pay large bonuses to attract and retain talent, why don't the airlines do the same? \?

Because we are labor. Which means someone can do it for cheaper. The issue I think for them was not necessarily the monetary aspect, but the quality of training aspect. I think a lot of us saw that this 1500 hour rule would bring better pay but it's obviously now what the FAA or management has in mind.