Are you the captain?

Tangodelta29

Tangodelta29

Well-Known Member
Here's a little "what if" that I thought about recently. It's more "are you the captain?" then it is "You are the captain" It's about who becomes the PIC in a situation where pilot (and co-pilot if crew of 2) are disabled, sick, or something happens to them, that hiders their flying ability's mid flight.

This might be more imaginable when related to single pilot ops. Just like the situation where the passenger/private pilot ends up flying the plane down safely. So what if similarly, the pilots were unable to fly the plane, and say I walked up to try to help out, and actually ended up flying the plane...

Am I legally Pilot in command? Or am I just a guy helping, and the real PIC is just unable. I know this situation is ridiculous, but I'm just curious as to what the legal system would say about it.

I mean you could think of many scenarios that get even more ridiculous. What if I did become the PIC, and I knew how to fly the plane just fine... Could I made the decision of not landing at the nearest airport, and then just take the passengers to their actual destination. (say it was like 45 min out of the way) Just to be nice?:rolleyes: (assuming the pilots don't need medical help)

I know I left it kinda vague, but the main question is does "that person" become the pic, and have all the "abilities" that a pic would have?


I am in no way talking about hijacking,hurting anyone, or doing anything illegal, just curious.
 
Tangodelta29 said:
Here's a little "what if" that I thought about recently. It's more "are you the captain?" then it is "You are the captain" It's about who becomes the PIC in a situation where pilot (and co-pilot if crew of 2) are disabled, sick, or something happens to them, that hiders their flying ability's mid flight.

This might be more imaginable when related to single pilot ops. Just like the situation where the passenger/private pilot ends up flying the plane down safely. So what if similarly, the pilots were unable to fly the plane, and say I walked up to try to help out, and actually ended up flying the plane...

Am I legally Pilot in command? Or am I just a guy helping, and the real PIC is just unable. I know this situation is ridiculous, but I'm just curious as to what the legal system would say about it.

I mean you could think of many scenarios that get even more ridiculous. What if I did become the PIC, and I knew how to fly the plane just fine... Could I made the decision of not landing at the nearest airport, and then just take the passengers to their actual destination. (say it was like 45 min out of the way) Just to be nice?:rolleyes: (assuming the pilots don't need medical help)

I know I left it kinda vague, but the main question is does "that person" become the pic, and have all the "abilities" that a pic would have?


I am in no way talking about hijacking,hurting anyone, or doing anything illegal, just curious.
Click to expand...

Looking to log a little turbine PIC one heartattack at a time? You're sick, just sick!:sarcasm:
 
Tangodelta29 said:
I mean you could think of many scenarios that get even more ridiculous. What if I did become the PIC, and I knew how to fly the plane just fine... Could I made the decision of not landing at the nearest airport, and then just take the passengers to their actual destination. (say it was like 45 min out of the way) Just to be nice?:rolleyes: (assuming the pilots don't need medical help)
Click to expand...

In that type of circumstance, your duty isn't to get the people to their destination. I can't imagine any situation where a non-crewmember were to take control of the aircraft due to pilot incapacitation and not require some sort of medical assistance. Are the pilots taking naps, or what?

No, if that ever were to happen, your only responsibility is to get the plane on the ground safely. Hell, crash the airplane somewhere on the airport grounds, whatever. Your job isn't to continue to Boston just to help out. If you passed up suitable airports on your way to the destination as a non-crewmember just to be nice to the passengers, you'll have a hell of a lot of explaining to do, not only to the FAA, but to the airline, the passengers, etc.

So in other words, if you were ever to find yourself in that rare circumstance, land. :)
 
dasleben said:
In that type of circumstance, your duty isn't to get the people to their destination. I can't imagine any situation where a non-crewmember were to take control of the aircraft due to pilot incapacitation and not require some sort of medical assistance. Are the pilots taking naps, or what?

No, if that ever were to happen, your only responsibility is to get the plane on the ground safely. Hell, crash the airplane somewhere on the airport grounds, whatever. Your job isn't to continue to Boston just to help out. If you passed up suitable airports on your way to the destination as a non-crewmember just to be nice to the passengers, you'll have a hell of a lot of explaining to do, not only to the FAA, but to the airline, the passengers, etc.

So in other words, if you were ever to find yourself in that rare circumstance, land. :)
Click to expand...

As a non-airline pilot, if I was riding on RegionalX or LegacyY, and some FA screamed "IS THERE A PILOT ON BOARD!!!!!!AHHHHHH" And I had to come to the rescue (incredibly unlikely situation) I'd probably continue on to the destination just due to the fact that I know that the wx was forcasted good enough to land there, and that the runway was suitable or the flight wouldn't have been dispatched at all. Plus you'll have adequately burned off excess fuel that could result in a fire. I'd spend the rest of the flight (presuming I had much time at all) reading up on the performance characteristics, and talking on the radio to the expert that ATC would have had brought in to talk me down.

I dunno, I view this kind of wacky emergency like anyother, and frankly, I'd rather stick to the plan than try to wing it. The FMS is already programmed, the speeds are already calculated, and more fuel will be burned off. Screw chopping and dropping and making myself a human candle when I land at an airport that seems good enough, overshoot the end of the runway and burst into flames. My $.02
 
I'd have a hard time justifying taking a 757 clear across the country (or the pond) just to save an overweight landing. Land at the next reasonable airport that has CFR. I wouldn't go land willy nilly at the next 5000 ft paved strip just because its there. The key is reasonable airport.

Now a quick flight from BOS to BGR (200 miles) i'd probably continue to Bangor even just a third of the way into the flight. BGR has a ginormus runway and the highest class of CFR that there is. Of course there is only 1 airport between the two that I'd even consider trying to put a jet on, and the runway there is 4000 feet shorter.


Of course this is one of those 'out there' scenarios that when feces hits the fan, it could be going anywhere.
 
OldTownPilot said:
I'd have a hard time justifying taking a 757 clear across the country (or the pond) just to save an overweight landing. Land at the next reasonable airport that has CFR. I wouldn't go land willy nilly at the next 5000 ft paved strip just because its there. The key is reasonable airport.

Now a quick flight from BOS to BGR (200 miles) i'd probably continue to Bangor even just a third of the way into the flight. BGR has a ginormus runway and the highest class of CFR that there is. Of course there is only 1 airport between the two that I'd even consider trying to put a jet on, and the runway there is 4000 feet shorter.


Of course this is one of those 'out there' scenarios that when feces hits the fan, it could be going anywhere.
Click to expand...

How likely is it that'd it happen right after takeoff, and you'd have to make a decision like that, no I'm sticking to the plan, unless atc can give me vectors to blue-bird wx and freakishly long runways.
 
OldTownPilot said:
Land at the next reasonable airport that has CFR. I wouldn't go land willy nilly at the next 5000 ft paved strip just because its there. The key is reasonable airport..
Click to expand...

Exactly!

"Ring!"

Me: "Hello"

Him: "Hey, I need a Safety opinion."

Me: "Shoot."

Him: "We left LAX and while we were climbing out of 30K, the right engine rolled back."

Me: "What did you do?"

Him: "We declared and emergency and went back to LAX. But I think I might be in trouble."

Me: "Why?"

Him: "Well, we overflew Burbank."

Me: "Doesn't the procedure say 'Land at the nearest suitable airport'?"

Him: "Yeah."

Me: "Well, I think we can make a pretty good case that 5700' of runway at Burbank is not a suitable airport for a heavyweight MD-80 landing single engine at 15 flaps, don't you?"

Him: "That's what I thought, too. I just wanted some independent confirmation."

Me: "Well, you got it. If anyone calls you on it, you'll have me, the Central Air Safety guy AND your Capt. rep in the office to argue the point for you."

Him: "Thanks."

That is a true story.
 
So *both* pilots are incapacitated? How do you plan on opening that door? haha.. good luck with that one.
 
If the actual crewmembers were incapable of performing their duties for any reason, and somehow you found yourself in the captain's seat flying the airplane, then yes, you would be the legal PIC. The current ICAO and FAA definition is: "The pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time." If you are the only other pilot on the aircraft, you are the PIC by definition. The issue gets a little fuzzy about the decisions you could and should make but your primary responsibility would be to get the aircraft and passengers on the ground safely. You would be in serious hot water if you continued a flight based solely on convenience issues. Declare an emergency and use all available resources to accomplish your heroic duty. You can explain it to all of us later when you appear on Good Morning America or Oprah. Hell, I would log the PIC time as well. :D
 
calcapt said:
If the actual crewmembers were incapable of performing their duties for any reason, and somehow you found yourself in the captain's seat flying the airplane, then yes, you would be the legal PIC. The current ICAO and FAA definition is: "The pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time." If you are the only other pilot on the aircraft, you are the PIC by definition. The issue gets a little fuzzy about the decisions you could and should make but your primary responsibility would be to get the aircraft and passengers on the ground safely. You would be in serious hot water if you continued a flight based solely on convenience issues. Declare an emergency and use all available resources to accomplish your heroic duty. You can explain it to all of us later when you appear on Good Morning America or Oprah. Hell, I would log the PIC time as well. :D
Click to expand...

Oh come on, if somebody had to take over one of your 737's they wouldn't even have to touch the thing until 200', what with your autothrottles, autopilots and everything. That's hardly PIC time!

:)
 
jtrain609 said:
Oh come on, if somebody had to take over one of your 737's they wouldn't even have to touch the thing until 200', what with your autothrottles, autopilots and everything. That's hardly PIC time!
Click to expand...

Tell it to the Turkish IP and IOE F/O that killed themselves in Schipol. Oh wait, you can't...they're dead.
 
jtrain609 said:
Oh come on, if somebody had to take over one of your 737's they wouldn't even have to touch the thing until 200', what with your autothrottles, autopilots and everything. That's hardly PIC time!

:)
Click to expand...

Better yet, use both autopilots and it would autoland. You know John, I bet even you could land one of my 737s doing that. :laff:
 
calcapt said:
Better yet, use both autopilots and it would autoland. You know John, I bet even you could land one of my 737s doing that. :laff:
Click to expand...

I ever tell you the story about how I hand flew a raw data ILS to minimums in a thunderstorm in an MD-88 sim while still a bit drunk from the night before? There was a time when I was a real pilot, and that time is gone now. At this point I'd probably kill myself with the flying bike, and that damned airplane did nearly EVERYTHING for you. Screw up setting the bleeds on an icing takeoff? No big deal! It'll fix it for you. Don't know how to fly an ILS? Hey, there's a flight director and an autopilot! Click it off at 100', chop the power and you probably won't even kill yourself.

But alas, now I'm not much more than a hack.
 
calcapt said:
If the actual crewmembers were incapable of performing their duties for any reason, and somehow you found yourself in the captain's seat flying the airplane, then yes, you would be the legal PIC. The current ICAO and FAA definition is: "The pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time." If you are the only other pilot on the aircraft, you are the PIC by definition. The issue gets a little fuzzy about the decisions you could and should make but your primary responsibility would be to get the aircraft and passengers on the ground safely. You would be in serious hot water if you continued a flight based solely on convenience issues. Declare an emergency and use all available resources to accomplish your heroic duty. You can explain it to all of us later when you appear on Good Morning America or Oprah. Hell, I would log the PIC time as well. :D
Click to expand...


Thanks guys...

I know its weird but it got everyone talking... and its not THAT hard to think of scenarios. What if the pilots got sick from food they ate at the airport?

But I'd rather not.
 
You would not legally be PIC (technically perhaps) but unless you are rated for the aircraft you'd just be some yahoo PPL who saved the day (hopefully).
 
Ramsey said:
You would not legally be PIC (technically perhaps) but unless you are rated for the aircraft you'd just be some yahoo PPL who saved the day (hopefully).
Click to expand...


Exactly. I may be rated and typed in the 767, but even if the boss kicks off in flight, I cannot log the time as PIC. His name is on the release as PIC. Heck, I wouldn't even get captain's pay!

That brings up another question. When would his per diem stop? Would it be like a mid rotation deviation?
 
Our per diem starts from when we walk into our domicile to 15 minutes after we block in on the final flight. It doesn't say anything having to be breathing to collect it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top