Are these airline payscales accurate?

$20,000 a year is enough to get by.

Although I no longer work down in the ramp, (stepped up to corporate), I did many years at the starting wage of $7.50, with a quarter raise each YEAR! No overtime allowed. And I'm not the only one. Everyone down on the ramp with me in that triple digit heat were able to pull it off.
Granted, I had it "easy" because I rent, I have no children, don't have the newest car and I am unmarried. So that whopping $13,650 (BEFORE TAXES) a year went a lot farther for me than others. But let's face facts, I choose to rent instead of buying a house I couldn't afford. I don't have children because I'm responsible enough to not have children when I can't afford to raise them, I ride a 22 year old motorcycle to save on gas expenses, and I have a crumby used 13year old truck for the rainy days. Instead of marrying some chick I dated for a few months, I will be marrying (This friday in fact) the woman I have dated for over 11 years! (Eleven yearsg!)

$7.50 an hour was enough to get me by, in my own 500 sqft+ appartment in a very nice part of Phoenix AZ. There's no secret to it, budget your rent, food, gas, utilities, etc. I buy generic hamburgers and buns. I don't need 8,000 channels in super surround liquid plasma lcd HD 72" blah blah blah, I have a 12 year old 27" I got from craigslist with basic cable. I don't go partying and drinking every night. I buy my wardrobe at walmart, and I make them last for years. My friends say I have no life becasue it's 5 days of wake up-work-home-sleep. My weekends consist of low cost diversions such as mountain biking, ham radio, and shooting (9mm and .22 because everything else is too expensive)etc. Want to save even more money? Swallow your pride and get a roomate. (Although I never got to that point).

As for the cost of paying back loans, I remind you the best flight training in the world is free, in the US military of course. But if you insist on flying, and insist on going via private training, then you have to accept it's a long difficult road. If you want instant gratification, try automobile or motorcycle mechanic.

That being said, if you can learn to live on ramper pay, then pilot pay is just as easy (difficult) to adjust to.

Single Ramper pay= 13,650/yr. First year F/O= $20,000

That means all other things aside, you now have an extra $529 a month. That should be just enough to pay for all that flight training you have to pay back. (Once again, you should still be frugal, not everyone has to attend Pan-Am, or ATP; Places like Ari-Ben, and White Air will suffice)

If I sound like a jerk, I'm not. I'm just pointing out that 1) $20K is enough to get by. 2) If it's not enough to get by, it is/was your own decisions and actions that cause it not to be enough to get by. And 3) It takes a lot to become a commercial airline pilot, but it takes even more to remain one.

It's not impossible, it's just difficult. Tough it out, be a man/woman, and live the dream.

And YES, $20K is low, quite low in fact, but in the end, others have done more with less, and they do it everyday.

People have complained about public teacher pay for years, it remains low but people still do it. NYPD is the largest agency of it's kind in the nation, and has some of the lowest pay in the industry, no one has ever solved that problem, but they still have thousands of applicants per year. And pilots will continue to desire higher pay, but it will continue to be low; nonthless, someone will still do it (for less).
 
As for the pilots complaining about $20k/yr -- even though it's only for one year -- those are the pilots that obviously got everything handed to them when they were young and this is the first actual job that they ever had (based on what I've heard from other pilots and knowing just how spoiled people can be).


I made $20k/yr stocking groceries in high school. And that was living at home, when gas was $1/gal.

Also I disagree with you. I would say that the people that are complaining are those that didn't have everything handed to them and realize how far $20k really goes.
 
This coming from an OTS hire for an ATCS position with the FAA.

So how are you going to improve the work conditions that current ATCS have to deal with. Don't want to see any moaning and groaning, otherwise we might wrongfully lump you in with those who are bitching and moaning and not doing anything. . .as opposed to thanking you for your attempts to improve the profession.

Thread lightly.

I'm not even sure what you mean. I dont think you got the gist of my comment?

Do you honestly think that someone who sits around and MOANS and GROANS about the profession is really doing any good? Honestly answer here.

And why is the profession i'm going towards even brought up? Did you see me complain about the ATC'ers conditions and pay? Nope. None at all. So you dont really have any validity to try and say "coming from an OTS."
 
I'm not even sure what you mean. I dont think you got the gist of my comment?

Do you honestly think that someone who sits around and MOANS and GROANS about the profession is really doing any good? Honestly answer here.

And why is the profession i'm going towards even brought up? Did you see me complain about the ATC'ers conditions and pay? Nope. None at all. So you dont really have any validity to try and say "coming from an OTS."


From everything I've seen ATC applicants get paid fairly well in their first year.
 
From everything I've seen ATC applicants get paid fairly well in their first year.

It depends. Initial pay i believe is $19k plus a % for locality until you get out of the AG-1 payscale and get checked out on different levels (D) of training.
 
Check the payscales at airlinepilotcentral.com. They seem to be the most accurate (based on the fact that I haven't heard anyone say they weren't).

As for the pilots complaining about $20k/yr -- even though it's only for one year -- those are the pilots that obviously got everything handed to them when they were young and this is the first actual job that they ever had (based on what I've heard from other pilots and knowing just how spoiled people can be).

Have OBVIOUSLY had everything handed to them, eh? You need a serious attitude adjustment, because I certainly haven't been handed everything in life, and living on poverty wages for upwards of 3 years only to get furloughed wasn't exactly a cake walk.
 
Once again, I apologize. I really didn't mean it to sound the way I did. I got a little out of hand, but it is true that there are pilots out there like that. I've heard that from real pilots this summer when I traveled, so it is not my opinion. I wasn't saying that it describes anyone in particular.

Heard it from real pilots eh?

Well I'm a real pilot, and I think it's a load of crap.
 
18-20k for a job where you are responsible for the lives of 30+ people on each flight is downright embarrassing. When you factor in that it costs more than a college degree to get the flight training for the job, it should be illegal. The minimum should be 30k. Could I get by on 20k a year? Sure, in Dallas. What if I live on the coast? No way.

You know what you get after your year of crappy pay? No loyalty at all. A nice long furlough that could last forever.

The good news is that no one forces you to fly for an airline. If people don't like it, they don't have to go there.
 
Have OBVIOUSLY had everything handed to them, eh? You need a serious attitude adjustment, because I certainly haven't been handed everything in life, and living on poverty wages for upwards of 3 years only to get furloughed wasn't exactly a cake walk.

Heard it from real pilots eh?

Well I'm a real pilot, and I think it's a load of crap.

I think you need to calm down and cut the kid some slack. He apologized for what he said and realizes that he made a mistake. Now, I don't know about you, but that sounds like a good "attitude adjustment" to me. What more do you want? There's no reason why you or anyone else should feel the need to cut people down, especially when they're young, inexperienced in this profession and have apologized for a wrong.
 
I think you need to calm down and cut the kid some slack. He apologized for what he said and realizes that he made a mistake. Now, I don't know about you, but that sounds like a good "attitude adjustment" to me. What more do you want? There's no reason why you or anyone else should feel the need to cut people down, especially when they're young, inexperienced in this profession and have apologized for a wrong.

First post eh? Glad you could come out of the wood work.

He said time and time again, "But there ARE pilots like this out there!" and then tried to legitimize his statement by saying that they're real pilots.

Well I'm a real pilot and I think it's BS and insulting.
 
First post eh? Glad you could come out of the wood work.

He said time and time again, "But there ARE pilots like this out there!" and then tried to legitimize his statement by saying that they're real pilots.

Well I'm a real pilot and I think it's BS and insulting.

Its not often I agree with JTrain, but, yeah, that's definately BS
 
First post eh? Glad you could come out of the wood work.

He said time and time again, "But there ARE pilots like this out there!" and then tried to legitimize his statement by saying that they're real pilots.

Well I'm a real pilot and I think it's BS and insulting.

Okay, so according to you, there are ZERO people that are spoiled in this country. There are ZERO people that got mostly everything handed to them when they were growing up. (Wasn't there a post about something like this not too long ago?) Maybe this is where he got the idea from -- on this site? I still don't think that you should cut him down like that.

Is that an insult? Sure.

Is that BS? Sure.

Did he apologize? Yes.

Did he mean what he said? Unlikely.

Did he learn a lesson? Most likely.
 
Umm, "Kevin"? Any reason you'd like to tell us that you inaugurated your introduction to JC on this thread?

PM is a-ok.
 
Okay, so according to you, there are ZERO people that are spoiled in this country. There are ZERO people that got mostly everything handed to them when they were growing up. (Wasn't there a post about something like this not too long ago?) Maybe this is where he got the idea from -- on this site? I still don't think that you should cut him down like that.

Is that an insult? Sure.

Is that BS? Sure.

Did he apologize? Yes.

Did he mean what he said? Unlikely.

Did he learn a lesson? Most likely.

So are you going to keep attacking him because you need to find something to do since you got furloughed, or are you going to just let it alone and move on?

No, it's okay. I should never say things that I don't mean - especially if it's about pilots on a pilot forum! :eek: :(

I'm not really like this. It's just that I have a lot of friends that get mostly everything they want and I have to work for things that I want. I've been working at a store throughout all of high school and when I was the one that got a job, they thought it was funny and they would joke around. It would get me angry sometimes. My mom forced me to get a job as soon as I was old enough to work and it has taken a lot of time away from fun things that I want to do.

So, I really don't want to insult anyone. I want to continue learning more from people on this site that have been around the block and know what they're talking about. I just let my frustration get the best of me. My role on this site is that of learning and for a moment I had forgotten that.
 
Heard it from real pilots eh?

Well I'm a real pilot, and I think it's a load of crap.

It's not all his fault. I seem to run into lot's of pilots flying for majors **cough NWA cough** who have the opinion he's talking about. It's dumb but common.
 
I'm hot here to agree or disagree with anyone, because I know a few different stories, here:

1 - My friends at Embry Riddle. I have three friends down there who are getting a full ride from their parents. A pilot's education (and a very expensive at that), for free. I'm not calling them spoilt because I know how hard they work, and if their parents saved up for it or are otherwise paying for it, that's their own prerogative. I've already taken one issue with one of my friend's complaining because he's making money, flying. I know it's not good, but he doesn't have huge loan payments (or any debt payments other than a card - parents bought him the car, too), he has a decent place to live and he doesn't need to take care of a family. I'm not out to flame anyone in the same situation, but at least appreciate the fact that other guys do it on much less.

2 - Another friend at Embry Riddle (didn't come out of the Northern Virginia area, so he doesn't have the ridiculous financial backing that all of my Centreville friends do) is going in on his parents college savings for him, with a small margin backed by a non-deferred loan, on which they're making payments. I doubt he'll be complaining about much when he gets out, but my main point for using his story is that not everyone who goes to Riddle has amazing financial backing. Yes, his parents are handing it to him, but they saved up for it and he's not the type to take that gift for granted.

3 - Some of my friends took out a loan and went to academies. They got their work done and are now in the regionals, paying it all back. Most here would agree, as I do now, that the loan way isn't a good way at all, but they're stuck with it and are dealing with it. I still don't think they have a right to complain about it, because they knew the pay schedules getting into it, but these are certainly not guys or gals who got anything handed to them.

4 - Me and other guys working their [butts] off to get some money saved up to go to the local FBO and work it all out that way. I'd venture to say this is one of the harder ways to go about getting into a good flying job, but I'm not going to justify anyone's complaints. One, any guy who went this route probably didn't take out a loan, or any large loan. Two, we still all knew about the pay schedules before getting into it. Three, we probably trained for a lot longer, so we had a longer time to contemplate whether or not we really want it.

All that to say, some people get things handed to them, but not all of them are spoiled. Some people work for all of it and do it themselves.


As a sort of side note, though still on topic, I do run into people who just irritate me. They would be included in a fifth section. I ran into a guy and his mom back in Centreville a while ago. He was 19. An ex-Colgan FO. They were complaining that nobody took him seriously and that Colgan was horrible because they didn't treat him well. He was 19. One more time: 19. How in the hell did he get all of that done by 19? Simple. His parents paid a good amount of it for him. Just by the kid's demeanor and the fact that he was still mulling around with his mom, he was spoiled. In fact, the way he was complaining about the airline, I'd venture to say he was quite the brat. It sounded as if he expected the airline to hold him above the rest because he was obviously better than the rest, having gotten the hours by 19. They're out there. Spoiled pilots just tend to be bigger whiners than the rest, so they get noticed. I'd venture to say, however, that they're not all that common. Most of the complainers do so because they've worked their butts off and don't have anything to show for it.

Wages suck. It's a fact of being in the lower tiers of the airlines. Maybe we can make it better, maybe we can't. None of us started back in the days where pilots were worshipped as gods of the earth, so we can't complain too much that we were led on. I don't think anyone is justified to complain, but anyone who can pull the job off with loan payments (+ any other payments), a family, and other expenses, is at least more justified than the rest. I might not agree with it, but if you can pull it off with all of that on your back, I'm certainly not going to look down on you for it.
 
$20K isn't a lot of money when you compare it to the responsibilities that go along with it.

People get paid for what they know, not what they do!

Especially when you compare it to a Office Depot 1st year worker getting paid the same amount of money. Or even McDonalds!
 
College Loans

Flight School Loans

Mortgage Payment

Wifes College loan

Wifes Grad school loans (because in NY you have to have a masters to teach)

Medical bills (i don't even want to get started)

No car payments, those are long gone....along with the reliability those cars once had.


All this aside from normal bills and what not. And some jackass comes and says, "oh, i've lived on $13k/year and i had no problems". Seriously? Are you that dim? I remember when we were living the dream on that low of income working our way through college. I also remember the 7 years of not having medical insurance and what two trips to the ER did to our finances. Don't be stupid. $20K is a joke for this career, be it first year or any year.
 
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