"approved" weather/forecast services

sdfcvoh

This is my Custom Title
okay - this is a dumb one... but its a discussion that has been going on at my school and I thought I'd bring it to the masses (aka the real knowledge :))

we all have heard and taught about approved weather briefing sources (duats, wxbrief, aviationweather.gov)... but who can show me the actual printed reg that lists them? the only thing i've been able to find is a reference in 135.213 that lists them as NWS or any other service approved by the administrator... and of course this is for 91 and not 135...

okay - have at it dear gurus..... :D
 

RynoB

That One Guy
Quote from AC 00-45F Aviation Weather Services:

2.1 Classification of Aviation Weather Products
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The FAA has developed two classifications of aviation weather products:​
[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]primary [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]weather products, and [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]supplementary [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]weather products. The classifications are meant to eliminate confusion by differentiating between weather products that may be used to meet regulatory requirements and other weather products that may only be used to improve situational awareness.
All flight-related, aviation weather decisions must be based on the primary weather products. Supplementary weather products augment the primary products by providing additional weather information, but may not be used as stand-alone products to meet aviation weather regulatory requirements or without the relevant primary products. When discrepancies exist between primary and supplementary products pertaining to the same weather phenomena, pilots must base flight-related decisions on the primary weather product. Furthermore, multiple primary products may be necessary to meet all aviation weather regulatory requirements.
Aviation weather products produced by the federal government (NWS) are primary products unless designated as a supplementary product by the FAA. In addition, the FAA may choose to restrict certain weather products to specific types of usage or classes of user. Any limitations imposed by the FAA on the use of a product will appear in the product label.

  1. [/FONT]
    [*]2.1.1
Primary Weather Product Classification
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A primary weather product is an aviation weather product that meets all of the regulatory requirements and safety needs for use in making weather-related flight decisions.​
[/FONT]
Note: Sections 3 through 8 of this Advisory Circular are considered Primary Weather Products.​
  1. 2.1.2
Supplementary Weather Product Classification
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A supplementary weather product is an aviation weather product that may be used for enhanced situational awareness. A supplementary weather product must only be used in conjunction with one or more primary weather products. In addition, the FAA may further restrict the use of the supplementary weather products through limitations described in the product label.​
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I'm not going to go through all the sections, because of the size of the AC. But, it may be found on the FAA's Website www.faa.gov.

Here is the specific link to download the PDF: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...90620AAC739B37D8862574890057B8FE?OpenDocument
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azaviator08

New Member
I've always thought that the only legal ways are duats and wxbrief. This is because that is b/c you have to give your information, either tail number or last name. That is how the FAA knows that you actually got the weather briefing. But as long as you get all of the required information I don't think it truly matters where you got it from. But ulimately I am to lazy to open up my reg's.
 

sdfcvoh

This is my Custom Title
Thanks for posting that from AC 00-45F. Great find.

But....since AC's are guidance based and not regulatory, I'm still on the hunt!

Anyone? There's gotta be a reg out there somewhere that defines "approved" weather sources....:banghead:
 

RynoB

That One Guy
Thanks for posting that from AC 00-45F. Great find.

But....since AC's are guidance based and not regulatory, I'm still on the hunt!

Anyone? There's gotta be a reg out there somewhere that defines "approved" weather sources....:banghead:
I agree that AC's are advisory in nature, but I believe the following statement makes this example regulatory:

A primary weather product is an aviation weather product that meets all of the regulatory requirements and safety needs for use in making weather-related flight decisions.

(underline is my emphasis.) The AC then goes on to list primary weather products over several sections.
 

Douglas

Old School KSUX
"The AWC Homepage "Standard Briefing" is intended as a tool to help pilots better visualize weather and weather-related hazards. It is not intended as a substitute for a weather briefing obtained from a Flight Service Station (1-800-WXBRIEF). Currently, the information contained here does not meet the FAA requirements for a pre-flight weather brief. Therefore, it's important that pilots still call and obtain a briefing from an FAA Flight Service Specialist"
from http://aviationweather.gov/std_brief/

DUATS providers and WXBRIEF specialist are approved.
 

sdfcvoh

This is my Custom Title
I agree that AC's are advisory in nature, but I believe the following statement makes this example regulatory:

A primary weather product is an aviation weather product that meets all of the regulatory requirements and safety needs for use in making weather-related flight decisions.

(underline is my emphasis.) The AC then goes on to list primary weather products over several sections.
I agree with you... AC's and AIM are not regulatory unless they refer to a regulation.. and this one does. The post after yours really starts swinging the pendulum back in the wrong direction, though!!

The main reason for this discussion is to answer one part of the requirements listed under 91.103 (weather).
 

tgrayson

New Member
approved weather briefing sources
Where are you getting the "approved weather source" language? The regulation doesn't use it. It merely calls for "all available information concerning that flight". Traditionally the determination about whether the pilot has complied with this occurred 1) after an accident, and 2) by the NTSB.

It is true that the FAA does "approve" certain weather providers, particularly the ones used by Part 121 and 135 operations. Whether this would **automatically** protect them from a 91.103 violation, I don't know. My cynical side says probably not. ;)

For us Part 91 folks, the FAA has created a certification program for internet weather providers. Here's a list:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/operations/qicp/approved/

Again, I don't know whether this would automatically protect you from a 91.103 violation. It would probably take some actual NTSB cases to have a better idea.
 

sdfcvoh

This is my Custom Title
Where are you getting the "approved weather source" language? The regulation doesn't use it. It merely calls for "all available information concerning that flight". Traditionally the determination about whether the pilot has complied with this occurred 1) after an accident, and 2) by the NTSB.

It is true that the FAA does "approve" certain weather providers, particularly the ones used by Part 121 and 135 operations. Whether this would **automatically** protect them from a 91.103 violation, I don't know. My cynical side says probably not. ;)

For us Part 91 folks, the FAA has created a certification program for internet weather providers. Here's a list:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/operations/qicp/approved/

Again, I don't know whether this would automatically protect you from a 91.103 violation. It would probably take some actual NTSB cases to have a better idea.
You know - I'm not sure! the approved bit has always been just presented as "what are the approved sources." Of course if you read part1 says "Approved" means that its been blessed by the administrator. So..... I've been on a mission to find out just exactly what those sources are. It seems that each corner turns into another corner that goes the other direction.

Personally, I'm getting a WXbrief'er to type in my name anytime I do x-country. The same, DUATS gets my login before every flight to check for NOTAMs. But anyhoo..... 91.103. I've been so immersed in it that I wanted to answer the weather info question. Probably created more questions than I answered!:D As is usually the case.....
 

RynoB

That One Guy
You know - I'm not sure! the approved bit has always been just presented as "what are the approved sources." Of course if you read part1 says "Approved" means that its been blessed by the administrator. So..... I've been on a mission to find out just exactly what those sources are. It seems that each corner turns into another corner that goes the other direction.

Personally, I'm getting a WXbrief'er to type in my name anytime I do x-country. The same, DUATS gets my login before every flight to check for NOTAMs. But anyhoo..... 91.103. I've been so immersed in it that I wanted to answer the weather info question. Probably created more questions than I answered!:D As is usually the case.....
I agree. I personally use DUATS just so there is a record of me getting the briefing. My company's ops specs (for 135 flights) and management specs (for 91K flights) allow us to use WSI for "official weather." But, if an issue comes up, how am I supposed to prove I got full weather information and NOTAMS from WSI?
 

minitour

New Member
I agree. I personally use DUATS just so there is a record of me getting the briefing. My company's ops specs (for 135 flights) and management specs (for 91K flights) allow us to use WSI for "official weather." But, if an issue comes up, how am I supposed to prove I got full weather information and NOTAMS from WSI?
Print them out when you get your briefing.

-mini
 

tgrayson

New Member
It seems that each corner turns into another corner that goes the other direction.
That's because there is no answer to your question. The way the regulation is written clearly intends to make the pilot guilty until proven innocent. Why would the FAA willingly give up this tool?

Even a FSS briefing is no certain protection. There was a case a few years ago about an ag pilot who made several flights per day, but got only one briefing in the morning. He ended up running out of fuel because an airport where he anticipated refueling closed during the middle of the day. The morning briefer didn't have the notam, but a later briefer would have.

Your best bet for any degree of certainty is to find an NTSB case supporting the use of these other sources, or perhaps a LOI from the FAA's General Counsel's Office.
 

sdfcvoh

This is my Custom Title
... The way the regulation is written clearly intends to make the pilot guilty until proven innocent. Why would the FAA willingly give up this tool?

Well - I think I've beaten this one dead enough. Probably will ask our POI next time he comes into the school to see his opinion.

Its just one of those things I've never gotten a good answer to. But, I think you said it best in the quote....
 
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