Approach Minimums: Part 91, I'm a bit confused.

[RightSeatGirl]

So I have to admit this topic has me wondering. I've heard it debated and am unsure who is right. I should know the answer myself, but I'll readily admit I'm not nearly as fluent of the FAR's as I should be when it comes to this detail stuff. But here it is:

I thought published approach minimums were binding even on a Part 91 ferry flight. I'm told that it is legal to start an approach part 91 even if the visibility is reported as being below mins. Can someone explain this to me as I thought an instrument approach was an instrument approach regardless of type of operation.

Thank you!

 

[casey]

121 has to have minimums before crossing the FAF. if they drop below mins after the FAF you can continue to minimums and make a decision there.

91 can begin an approach in any weather and continue to minimums and make the decision there.

Just to make it clear, you can start an approach with 0/0 reported on the field under 91, you just cant descend below minimums without meeting the necessary requirements.

 

[Malko]

This might be too simple of an answer to be correct, but to my (limited) knowledge you ca begin any approach you choose to. Reported below mins does not matter. Go all the way down to mins, and up to 100ft above tdze height with the rabbit and you are o.k.

no reference, just what I seem to recall from my Ir training....

 

[MikeD]

So I have to admit this topic has me wondering. I've heard it debated and am unsure who is right. I should know the answer myself, but I'll readily admit I'm not nearly as fluent of the FAR's as I should be when it comes to this detail stuff. But here it is:

I thought published approach minimums were binding even on a Part 91 ferry flight. I'm told that it is legal to start an approach part 91 even if the visibility is reported as being below mins. Can someone explain this to me as I thought an instrument approach was an instrument approach regardless of type of operation.

Thank you!

Yes, as correctly stated by the others here, 14 CFR 91 is legal to go take a "look see". They're just not held to the restrictions on beginning the approach that 121 is.

 

[RightSeatGirl]

Ah! Got it! Thanks guys..I think..I was overthinking this...LOLO

 

[mshunter]

The only cavet you might have to worry about is explaining to the FAA how you determined you had the visibilty mins. when they are reported less that what is on the approach plate. So if you wreck something, or they are on the field wondering how you just landed and it's reported less that what is needed, TALK FAST!

 

[mikecweb]

The only cavet you might have to worry about is explaining to the FAA how you determined you had the visibilty mins. when they are reported less that what is on the approach plate. So if you wreck something, or they are on the field wondering how you just landed and it's reported less that what is needed, TALK FAST!

Flight visibility was whatever was stated as the minimums.

 

[gne in prog]

The only cavet you might have to worry about is explaining to the FAA how you determined you had the visibilty mins. when they are reported less that what is on the approach plate. So if you wreck something, or they are on the field wondering how you just landed and it's reported less that what is needed, TALK FAST!

that's simple. flight vis and reported vis are rarely the same. you see what you need to see at mins you had the vis.

 

[ackeight]

I do it all the time. The wx stations only report what they see where they are placed on the field. There are times when the WX about 1/4 mile on approach is better than what is reported(or worst). Here is the wierd part of the regs. You are supposed to determine that you have the correct inflight vis to land along with the laundry list of other things, but traveling 100-130kts and touchdown is seconds away, how are you supposed to determine in mere seconds that it's 1/2 or 1/4 miles(or even 1800ft vs 2400ft) until you touchdown and take a breather?(long run on sentence). I usually land when I feel comfortable and that comes with experience.

 

[minitour]

but traveling 100-130kts and touchdown is seconds away, how are you supposed to determine in mere seconds that it's 1/2 or 1/4 miles(or even 1800ft vs 2400ft) until you touchdown and take a breather?(long run on sentence). I usually land when I feel comfortable and that comes with experience.

T.L.A.R.

I mean...be reasonable. If they're saying 1600 RVR and you land, I think you could legitimately make a case for "nah, I had 1/2 mile!". If they're reporting 500/500/500, that might be difficult (careless & reckless operation).

-mini

 

[dasleben]

T.L.A.R.

I mean...be reasonable. If they're saying 1600 RVR and you land, I think you could legitimately make a case for "nah, I had 1/2 mile!". If they're reporting 500/500/500, that might be difficult (careless & reckless operation).

-mini

And if you hear the vis drop below minimums after you've crossed the FAF and decide to take a look, going missed when you see the blast pad chevrons slide under you is your best bet.

Or so I've heard. :bandit:

 

[mshunter]

Flight visibility was whatever was stated as the minimums.

that's simple. flight vis and reported vis are rarely the same. you see what you need to see at mins you had the vis.

I understand that, but prove it is my point. Do you have a way that you can spit out in a few seconds to a fed if he's sitting there is all I'm saying.

Like how long is the rabbit? The reason i ask this question is because my IR DPE asked me this very question on my check ride and I sat there like this---->:drool:. Just make sure you can explain it away.

 

[Cptnchia]

I understand that, but prove it is my point. Do you have a way that you can spit out in a few seconds to a fed if he's sitting there is all I'm saying.

Like how long is the rabbit? The reason i ask this question is because my IR DPE asked me this very question on my check ride and I sat there like this---->:drool:. Just make sure you can explain it away.

While this was a long time ago, I seem to remember this question coming up when I was working on my instument ticket. According to the instructor, the answer is that the flight vis is whatever the pilot says it is. There is no way the Feds can contradict you unless one happens to be sitting in the plane with you.

 

[mikecweb]

I understand that, but prove it is my point. Do you have a way that you can spit out in a few seconds to a fed if he's sitting there is all I'm saying.

Yeah, I probably would say:

Flight visibility was whatever was stated as the minimums.

You either see it or you don't. According to Mr. FAA and the regs if you don't see it and you continue you die. So if I lived and I said I saw it, I must have saw it.

 

[minitour]

And if you hear the vis drop below minimums after you've crossed the FAF and decide to take a look, going missed when you see the blast pad chevrons slide under you is your best bet.

Or so I've heard. :bandit:

I've never ever heard the weather reported below minimums once I passed the FAF. I'm unable to confirm nor deny whether or not it was reported on the radio. If it was, I must have had some static in the background and missed the transmission. :bandit:

I understand that, but prove it is my point. Do you have a way that you can spit out in a few seconds to a fed if he's sitting there is all I'm saying.

"I saw half-way down the runway"

"I could see the end of the touchdown zone"

"I saw from the beginning of the rabbit to the threshold"

Like how long is the rabbit?

About half a mile from the TDZ. I think it's 2200'-3000' If you can see the threshold or threshold lights from the "rabbit", you can see at least 1800 RVR.

*Story time*
I was ferrying a plane (172) back across half of the country (with a student in the right seat) and as we checked the weather, it was 10 miles. Then a new ATIS came out and it was 7. When we checked in with approach, yet another one came out and it was 3. As the approach controller turned me to intercept, he said "weather is still 1/2 mile in fog, but a new ATIS is coming out and it's probably going to be 1/4 mile. Cleared ILS 32, contact tower 119.5. Goodnight."

...Vis was great until about 75'. At that point, I'm not quite sure what it went down to.













...but it was above minimums when the wheels hit the runway. :bandit:

-mini