Another T-45 Goshawk day

ppragman said:
How does one maintain "formation currency?" I dunno, I've done several dozen formation takeoff and landings, but they were all in piston singles, so what makes them require currency?
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At least on the Navy side, it's not as much currency in flying formation (which doesn't require re-hacks) as it is maintaining currency in some of the higher risk things that we need to do on occaison....section go's/landings being some of those. Have never done one in a light single, but it does take some technique, and being that close to the ground in form is less forgiving. Only reason folks really do these things is to get into and out of the weather efficiently as a flight, so generally speaking, folks aren't aching to do them in their spare time.
 
MikeD said:
I'd be extremely cautious and wary about doing formation takeoffs/landings if not formally trained in them, fyi.
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+1......I'd personally be really hesitant to do one in an aircraft without a whole boatload of excess power to play around with. Section go or section landing.....
 
MikeD said:
Have to do a formation takeoff/landing every so number of days. Varies by MDS.

I'd be extremely cautious and wary about doing formation takeoffs/landings if not formally trained in them, fyi.
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This, our "formal training" was basically flying formation with someone who's done quite a bit more of it than I had, not "formal training" per se, but there's not too much that was too difficult provided you paid attention.

///AMG said:
At least on the Navy side, it's not as much currency in flying formation (which doesn't require re-hacks) as it is maintaining currency in some of the higher risk things that we need to do on occaison....section go's/landings being some of those. Have never done one in a light single, but it does take some technique, and being that close to the ground in form is less forgiving. Only reason folks really do these things is to get into and out of the weather efficiently as a flight, so generally speaking, folks aren't aching to do them in their spare time.
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Well, they're not too hard in my experience, but I'd also done quite a bit of low level (sub 500') work prior to doing formation takeoffs for the first time, so I suspect that might have something to do with it. Haven't done too much of that sort of thing in inclement weather though, that said, what's the procedure for flying IMC in formation in terms of scan and making sure one stays oriented?
 
ppragman said:
This, our "formal training" was basically flying formation with someone who's done quite a bit more of it than I had, not "formal training" per se, but there's not too much that was too difficult provided you paid attention.
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Theres also ALOT more to a form takeoff and landing than simply looking at the other aircraft and paying attention, with specific responsibilities both as lead and as wingman. There are items that need to be briefed and understood and/or standard.

Be very careful with complacency in that regard. What you don't know can certainly kill you. And if it doesn't kill you, 14 CFR 91.13 will certainly come and rear its ugly head.
 
///AMG said:
haha had forgotten about that gem.......I think my hand is stuck on my face from the facepalm I just made......freaking idiots
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This part I wrote, being a part I particularly harp on:

MikeD said:
.....However, neither member of the flight had any experience with formation flying. I've said time and again, that regardless of how many hours someone may have, formation flying is a flying all to it's own. If you're not trained in formation methods, responsibilities, and procedures, then you have absolutely no business engaging in any sort of formation flying. Period. Period again. The margin for error is so low, and the required knowlege so high, that there is absolutely no operationally pressing need for pilots not trained in formation flying, to engage in such. The mistakes both crews made, demonstrated with painful certainty that neither crew had even the most rudimentary training on formation procedures, much less any training on formation flying. And with this lack of training and experience, they still decided to embark on a night formation rejoin and flight......a fairly difficult and SA-taxing endeavor even for someone with a good amount of experience in formation flying. The mistakes these guys made could fill a proverbial laundry list.......
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ppragman said:
Well, they're not too hard in my experience, but I'd also done quite a bit of low level (sub 500') work prior to doing formation takeoffs for the first time, so I suspect that might have something to do with it. Haven't done too much of that sort of thing in inclement weather though, that said, what's the procedure for flying IMC in formation in terms of scan and making sure one stays oriented?
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They aren't too "hard" but there is inherently a very slim margin for error......and when you are talking about jet aircraft with generally squirrely ground/runway handling coupled with high takeoff/landing speeds, there is a lot of potential for error. So maybe a bit of an apples to oranges comparison with light singles, but I think some of the risk is still there probably.

In terms of form in IMC, love the one you are with man.......I have been frighteningly blue angels close to another jet just trying to keep sight of him on various section departures/approaches.....in terms of scan, not much more to it than lot losing sight when it is really thick IMC. Vertigo is very common in this situation, though if the clouds are a little less dense, you normally can afford to step out a little further and resume some of your normal scan. If I am really just barely holding on to visual contact, I am doing absolutely nothing else other than watching my lead's jet, and maybe just making quick glances at the nav here and there when I have the chance. Cockpit admin in this setting becomes a real chore....very slooooowwww if you are doing things safely (ie not losing sight)
 
///AMG said:
They aren't too "hard" but there is inherently a very slim margin for error......and when you are talking about jet aircraft with generally squirrely ground/runway handling coupled with high takeoff/landing speeds, there is a lot of potential for error. So maybe a bit of an apples to oranges comparison with light singles, but I think some of the risk is still there probably.

In terms of form in IMC, love the one you are with man.......I have been frighteningly blue angels close to another jet just trying to keep sight of him on various section departures/approaches.....in terms of scan, not much more to it than lot losing sight when it is really thick IMC. Vertigo is very common in this situation, though if the clouds are a little less dense, you normally can afford to step out a little further and resume some of your normal scan. If I am really just barely holding on to visual contact, I am doing absolutely nothing else other than watching my lead's jet, and maybe just making quick glances at the nav here and there when I have the chance. Cockpit admin in this setting becomes a real chore....very slooooowwww if you are doing things safely (ie not losing sight)
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Been IMC in formation as wing a number of times. A real chore especially when the WX is so bad I can only see the other jets wingtip or position light. Still, as wingman I have to be ready to assume lead at ANY time, so I have to follow along with freq changes and navigation/positional awareness, as well as NAVAIDs...all while not going lost wingman myself from having momentarily let lead disappear into the soup.

So far as form takeoffs, a takeoff abort plan is hugely important to brief and know, cold. How its going to be accomplished, what the centerline brick-wall means, and what to do if its crossed. SO many items that are SO much more than just simply paying attention.
 
MikeD said:
Been IMC in formation as wing a number of times. A real chore especially when the WX is so bad I can only see the other jets wingtip or position light. Still, as wingman I have to be ready to assume lead at ANY time, so I have to follow along with freq changes and navigation/positional awareness, as well as NAVAIDs...all while not going lost wingman myself from having momentarily let lead disappear into the soup.

So far as form takeoffs, a takeoff abort plan is hugely important to brief and know, cold. How its going to be accomplished, what the centerline brick-wall means, and what to do if its crossed. SO many items that are SO much more than just simply paying attention.
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Good points on both counts. I guess what I was getting at was that when you are in really thick soup struggling to hang on, those tasks like freq switches really become painful and time consuming. I try to always get my nav fully set up before I even get near a cloud on recovery, but yeah, there still are little admin items there that you can't afford to miss (bingo bug/radalt/scale/courseline changes as applicable). I think my SA has improved a lot as my experience with this sort of thing has increased, but I remember the first time I ever made a real IMC section approach.....literally the day I had recieved my Navy instrument card, I hopped in a jet as a solo -2 and got the X, clouds be damned. I probably couldn't have told you which way was north, or what airspeed we were at (until the gear/flaps/slats came down), but I could certainly tell you exactly what the back of his helmet looked like, or how many bugs were stuck to his wingtip form light. Luckily he was good, and my non-existant SA didn't matter that day :) My trust in him was only surpassed by how much I didn't want to look like an idiot and go lost sight on that approach.....I think there may have been a foot between his wingtip and my canopy for a little while, even with form/pos lights full bright
 
We flew form hops in the COD/E-2 as well but it was simple parad form, daytime, VMC only. Flying parade or cruise, even colum, is not particularly difficutl, it just takes some concentration and there is little room for error. Doing over the tops in cruise form isn't that difficult either...IMC, tougher, like the others have said. Now night forms, of which I just qualified on are not fun IMO. Nice in that on both nights, there was a horizon and moon out. Take away the moon, the horizon and add cloud layers and my bet is vertigo for all my friends!!! Just have to be careful on section take-offs as well. On my first in many years, a few weeks ago, the lead was a new IP as well and he pulled ther power back a bit too much on the go and go right by him, I pull the power, we even up, like a drag race. It was ugly.
 
///AMG said:
Good points on both counts. I guess what I was getting at was that when you are in really thick soup struggling to hang on, those tasks like freq switches really become painful and time consuming. I try to always get my nav fully set up before I even get near a cloud on recovery, but yeah, there still are little admin items there that you can't afford to miss (bingo bug/radalt/scale/courseline changes as applicable). I think my SA has improved a lot as my experience with this sort of thing has increased, but I remember the first time I ever made a real IMC section approach.....literally the day I had recieved my Navy instrument card, I hopped in a jet as a solo -2 and got the X, clouds be damned. I probably couldn't have told you which way was north, or what airspeed we were at (until the gear/flaps/slats came down), but I could certainly tell you exactly what the back of his helmet looked like. Luckily he was good, and my non-existant SA didn't matter that day :)
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Oh they're totally painful, I agree. And as you know, have to be kept up with. Here's an example: While in one of the aforementioned form recoveries, I was #2. I'm SA-maxed out just maintaining close (about 2-3 feet separation) on lead's jet as we're being vectored around from one approach to another on a runway change....I can only see his wingtip and his position light, not even his fuselage or canopy with the WX going by. So I'm buttholes and elbows just trying to swap instrument approach plates on my kneeboard while maintaining form, which itself took three attempts to complete. While doing that, I'm following the vectors on the HSI with the captain's bars, keeping note of where we are in relation to the field during the vectors, and trying to get the NAVAID freqs and other approach information into the HSI and quick plate study of the pertinent info. As we're turning onto radar base, lead advises that he has Nav flags on both parts of his ADI and HSI, and "2, assume lead on the right". I had to now be a stable platform, pick up the squawk, inform ATC that we had a nav problem with the lead jet and were swapping lead in the soup while continuing vectors, and keep my SA up while the localizer is coming in. Meanwhile, lead is performing a backing maneuver to fall into position on my left wing. I have to mentally think of centering the LOC, capturing the GS, when to configure and when to signal that to my now-wing jet, I have to think about breaking out and if we can't land (if the runway is now wet)...how I'm going to drop him off to complete his landing and I'll perform a missed approach for vectors back around, and I had to communicate all of this clearly/concisely/correcly to the ATC controller, so they're in the know. I'd had the foresight to request the PAR, but it was down as it hadn't been recal'd yet from the runway change. So the workload was extremely high, but we made it happen, and due to rain on the runway occurring, I had to do just what I'd planned: break out of the WX, drop off the wingman to land, and execute missed for a single-ship vector back to land. With no NAVAIDs, I couldn't separate or drag him on final.

These are just but a few considerations that need to be made with formation flying, all made worse when IMC and with a sick aircraft in the mix. TONS of stuff that has to be trained for, planned ahead for, understood, standardized, and executed in a timely and efficient manner.
 
Hacker15e said:
Regarding your formation training, did you learn at a FAST clinic?
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Hacker - do you teach FAST clinics?

All of the guys around here that teach them are prior Navy guys... complete with french lessons (rendevous,etc) from their 'volplane' squadrons.
 
ppragman said:
Nada, didn't do a fast clinic, though that would be cool.
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I definitely recommend it, both for fun and for your own development as a formation pilot. It can get expensive, since most of the flying is out-of-pocket and for fun, but it's worth it.
 
MikeD said:
Oh they're totally painful, I agree. And as you know, have to be kept up with. Here's an example: While in one of the aforementioned form recoveries, I was #2. I'm SA-maxed out just maintaining close (about 2-3 feet separation) on lead's jet as we're being vectored around from one approach to another on a runway change....I can only see his wingtip and his position light, not even his fuselage or canopy with the WX going by. So I'm buttholes and elbows just trying to swap instrument approach plates on my kneeboard while maintaining form, which itself took three attempts to complete. While doing that, I'm following the vectors on the HSI with the captain's bars, keeping note of where we are in relation to the field during the vectors, and trying to get the NAVAID freqs and other approach information into the HSI and quick plate study of the pertinent info. As we're turning onto radar base, lead advises that he has Nav flags on both parts of his ADI and HSI, and "2, assume lead on the right". I had to now be a stable platform, pick up the squawk, inform ATC that we had a nav problem with the lead jet and were swapping lead in the soup while continuing vectors, and keep my SA up while the localizer is coming in. Meanwhile, lead is performing a backing maneuver to fall into position on my left wing. I have to mentally think of centering the LOC, capturing the GS, when to configure and when to signal that to my now-wing jet, I have to think about breaking out and if we can't land (if the runway is now wet)...how I'm going to drop him off to complete his landing and I'll perform a missed approach for vectors back around, and I had to communicate all of this clearly/concisely/correcly to the ATC controller, so they're in the know. I'd had the foresight to request the PAR, but it was down as it hadn't been recal'd yet from the runway change. So the workload was extremely high, but we made it happen, and due to rain on the runway occurring, I had to do just what I'd planned: break out of the WX, drop off the wingman to land, and execute missed for a single-ship vector back to land. With no NAVAIDs, I couldn't separate or drag him on final.

These are just but a few considerations that need to be made with formation flying, all made worse when IMC and with a sick aircraft in the mix. TONS of stuff that has to be trained for, planned ahead for, understood, standardized, and executed in a timely and efficient manner.
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I had a story like that from my tweet days, except I was lead with a student. We were set up to go into the weather at about 15000' on the recovery to a wing landing off of an ILS. They started giving us vectors, and my student was turning to them... except our heading system was out to lunch by about 45 degrees. No warning flags or anything, just when we put "360" under the lubber line, we were actually pointed North west. Fortunately my wingman was an experienced IP with no student. He realized we were off before we did and spoke up on the single radio. I took the airplane, passed him the lead, and then followed him down to land, all the time hoping I didn't go lost wingman.
 
///AMG said:
This is possible? Maybe I am wrong in my assumption that AF jargon of "Wing landing" = USN/USMC jargon of "section landing"
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No. Joking. Formation in SAC tankers was two airplanes in the same state. Our cell formation was supposed to be on a 60deg angle and 1 mile in trail. Anyone who tried to fly this position for a while realized what a joke it was. We were dragging some F-4s back from Australia and had a wing weenie heading up a tanker 4 ship with F-4s on each tanker. We convinced him to be lead after he insisted on this regulation formation. Everyone else had done fighter drags for real and had done tours in Thailand and knew what really worked. In the lead position he could not see we were all neatly in trail, not on the 60deg line.

Being the old rogue, I have some shots of me and a good friend in 'fingertip' with the tankers. It cost a LOT of extra fuel to stay in position and was totally against the regs. For a while, however, SAC did do some crazy stuff with the tanker such as 'tactical approaches' where you came in at about 1500ft agl, full flaps and when the runway went under the nose, you went idle power, speedbrakes 60 and dropped the nose 10deg. At 200-300ft you started the flare. When one of the old Majors in our unit, "Crazy Leo", class 26ed a tanker by flaring too little and too late, SAC re-assessed the tactical approaches and abandoned them.
 
Orange Anchor said:
No. Joking. Formation in SAC tankers was two airplanes in the same state. Our cell formation was supposed to be on a 60deg angle and 1 mile in trail. Anyone who tried to fly this position for a while realized what a joke it was. We were dragging some F-4s back from Australia and had a wing weenie heading up a tanker 4 ship with F-4s on each tanker. We convinced him to be lead after he insisted on this regulation formation. Everyone else had done fighter drags for real and had done tours in Thailand and knew what really worked. In the lead position he could not see we were all neatly in trail, not on the 60deg line.

Being the old rogue, I have some shots of me and a good friend in 'fingertip' with the tankers. It cost a LOT of extra fuel to stay in position and was totally against the regs. For a while, however, SAC did do some crazy stuff with the tanker such as 'tactical approaches' where you came in at about 1500ft agl, full flaps and when the runway went under the nose, you went idle power, speedbrakes 60 and dropped the nose 10deg. At 200-300ft you started the flare. When one of the old Majors in our unit, "Crazy Leo", class 26ed a tanker by flaring too little and too late, SAC re-assessed the tactical approaches and abandoned them.
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Hey Orange,

You'll be happy to know then that Cell is now in trail, 1 mile, and we only go to the 60 line during the offloads (or the 30 line, depending on receiver type, distance either 1 mile or 2 miles, again, based on receiver type). And in an anchor, pretty much everyone just does trail with a "slight" offset, even during the A/R's.

But still, since a fighter drag is pretty much offloads the whole time, so you are still out on the 60 line almost the whole time. But yeah, when your are spaced out at 1 or 2 miles, +/- a QUARTER MILE is really good station keeping, and I'm happy at +/- a Half during a refuel! Especially since you are way more concerned about the platform for the receiver than maintaining good position on lead.
 
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