another safety pilot question...

PGT

Well-Known Member
Let's say the flight was 3 hours, XC, 2.7 of which the other person was under the hood.

Me ACTING as PIC I log:
TT: 2.7
day: 2.7
pic: 2.7

now for a x/c to count do I have to make a landing? There has been some confusion.

Couldn't we just ask for a touch and go then a full stop, 1 landing per person and both could log it as a XC?
 

tgrayson

New Member
now for a x/c to count do I have to make a landing? There has been some confusion.
There is no official ruling on whether the answer is yes or no. The old Part 61 FAQs said that the safety pilot could not log the time as X/C since the regs require a landing which only the pilot flying would get. Your solution gets around that objection, in my view.

You're going to have to make your own best judgment about whether this meets the regulatory requirements. (I think it does.) There are lots of pilots who get their cross-country time this way and I have yet to hear of it being rejected by a FSDO.
 

DFW flyer

New Member
I log the x-country acting as pic from the right seat. I count the time towards the ATP rating which the x-country does not require a landing.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
There is no official ruling on whether the answer is yes or no. The old Part 61 FAQs said that the safety pilot could not log the time as X/C since the regs require a landing which only the pilot flying would get. Your solution gets around that objection, in my view.
If that particular FAQ answer still represents policy, I disagree that a touch & go by the safety pilot at the destination gets around it. Three reasons:

1. The FAQ referred to "the takeoff and landing, i.e., conducting flight in an appropriate aircraft per the definition of cross-country." That's a reference to the takeoff and landing at the beginning and the end of the flight that makes it a cross country to begin with. If you really want to play this game (but see #3), do a touch & go and both the departure and arrival airports.

2. Part of Lynch's objection was to the part-time nature of the safety pilot. "The person that acts as safety pilot is no more than a passenger during the VFR portions of the flight. There is no logic, common sense or regulatory provision for a passenger, even a part time safety pilot, to log cross-country flight time." (Yeah, this really doesn't make too much sense, but see #3.)

3. Ultimately, IMO, this FAQ was a goal-oriented policy decision, not a true regulatory interpretation. The goal was simply that safety pilot time not be counted toward meeting cross country requirements for certificates and ratings. You make the interpretation fit the goal you want, whether grounded in "logic, common sense or regulatory provision" or not. "Getting around" a result-oriented policy usually doesn't work out too well.
 

tgrayson

New Member
The FAQ referred to "the takeoff and landing,
However, the definition of a x/c in 61.1 doesn't require a takeoff.

There is no logic, common sense or regulatory provision for a passenger, even a part time safety pilot, to log cross-country flight time." (Yeah, this really doesn't make too much sense, but see #3.)
Agreed about it not making sense. If the safety pilot is only a passenger, why can he log PIC time?

Getting around" a result-oriented policy usually doesn't work out too well.
I agree that the time isn't "quality", but then so is some unambiguous x/c time. One student of mine got almost his entire 50 hours by flying to the same airport over and over, 51 nm away.

Personally, I don't think that the PIC logged as a safety pilot is quality time, but since the FAA accepts it, I don't find allowing the x/c hours to be logged any more of a stretch. If they didn't want they, they should have written the regulations better, or provided some clear means of providing us with FAA interpretations.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
However, the definition of a x/c in 61.1 doesn't require a takeoff.
....but the definition of "flight" does.

But that's not the problem. You're trying to use logic and an examination of the regulatory language to combat a result-oriented policy that is not based on anything in the language of the regulations.
 

tgrayson

New Member
....but the definition of "flight" does.
I knew you'd say that. ;) But the x/c definition says the time "during a flight". So if I took off, and then turned the controls over to another pilot and allowed him to fly to another airport, and land, then that would be (arguably) a cross country for him, since it occurred "during a flight" and included a landing at another airport.

But that's not the problem. You're trying to use logic and an examination of the regulatory language to combat a result-oriented policy that is not based on anything in the language of the regulations.
Except that the policy is not currently stated anywhere. How can I be combating a policy that doesn't exist?
 

Michael95U

Well-Known Member
Let's say the flight was 3 hours, XC, 2.7 of which the other person was under the hood.

Me ACTING as PIC I log:
TT: 2.7
day: 2.7
pic: 2.7

now for a x/c to count do I have to make a landing? There has been some confusion.

Couldn't we just ask for a touch and go then a full stop, 1 landing per person and both could log it as a XC?
My FSDO made a ruling on this within the past 6 months. Basically, they stated that if you do not make a landing as a safety pilot, you cannot log the cross country time. Do a search because I think I posted the official letter from my POI.

Michael
 

tgrayson

New Member
Basically, they stated that if you do not make a landing as a safety pilot, you cannot log the cross country time. Do a search because I think I posted the official letter from my POI.
While I agree with what he said, his ruling doesn't have any force within any other FSDO.
 

Michael95U

Well-Known Member
While I agree with what he said, his ruling doesn't have any force within any other FSDO.
Right. But he did refer it up the chain. I have to believe that there has been SOME conversation on the subject higher up than the FSDO level.
 

PGT

Well-Known Member
My FSDO made a ruling on this within the past 6 months. Basically, they stated that if you do not make a landing as a safety pilot, you cannot log the cross country time. Do a search because I think I posted the official letter from my POI.

Michael
if you do it my way both pilots get to log the landing and such, both can log it XC :)
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Right. But he did refer it up the chain. I have to believe that there has been SOME conversation on the subject higher up than the FSDO level.
Don't make assumptions. A few years ago the Buffalo FSDO made the decision that every leg of a student solo cross country needed to be at least 50 NM in order to count.Even put in in writing. Even publicly on their web site. They didn't check up the chain and when a number of folks online did, the post disappeared very quickly.
 
Top