ANOTHER logging ? SIC and PIC during same flight

FL350

FL350

Well-Known Member
Is it legal / possible to log SIC and PIC time during the same flight?

5hr trip to New York, split half as PIC and half as SIC? The case was I flew the second half of the trip as PF and the captain flew the first half as PF. Switched roles on a redeye flight.

So split it 50/50 in the logbook?
 
Per the regs as long as you are properly rated for the aircraft you can log PIC when the sole manipulator. Technically what you said could be done.

The problem is that many companies don't care for such flight time and want you to be the one signing the acting PIC to log the PIC time.

Legal per FAA? Yes.

Helpful for obtaining a job? Unlikely.
 
I'm aware of the airlines and other operator's views on the pic time, which I don't agree with. But hey you have to build time somehow.

Anyway thanks for answering my question, I agree with that. And that's how I logged it. I log everything as compliant with the regs as possible
 
The more interesting question is whether you can log both at the same time. IOW, you log SIC for the whole flight and PIC when you are the pilot flying. The answer is probably yes under the regs but I doubt there's much FAA value to the extra SIC.
 
Maurus said:
Total Time is good for potential jobs. I am not allowed to attend a Spirit job fair because I don't have 4000TT.
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The total time would be the same. The scenario the post you quoted from is logging both PIC and SIC for the leg the SIC is flying the airplane.
 
Couple things for the OP, or for anyone else with the same question.

Do you have a PIC type in the plane? I'd assume so since you are asking about logging PIC time, but it's still worth asking.

Was this a 91 or 135 flight? If 135, have you completed a 299 ride? Without that, you can't be PIC. Either way, are you listed by the company as captain? If not, I'd be really careful about logging PIC.

You can disagree with the way that many companies view that all you want, but being the one who's manipulating the autopilot does not make you the Pilot in Command. Logging it as such is dishonest to both yourself and to your future employers.
 
SrFnFly227 said:
Couple things for the OP, or for anyone else with the same question.

Do you have a PIC type in the plane? I'd assume so since you are asking about logging PIC time, but it's still worth asking.

Was this a 91 or 135 flight? If 135, have you completed a 299 ride? Without that, you can't be PIC. Either way, are you listed by the company as captain? If not, I'd be really careful about logging PIC.

You can disagree with the way that many companies view that all you want, but being the one who's manipulating the autopilot does not make you the Pilot in Command. Logging it as such is dishonest to both yourself and to your future employers.
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It is only dishonest if you use it to claim PIC time on an application where the company defines it differently than the FAA does. A company has the absolute right to define it however it wants for it own purposes. That does not make it improper to log it in your FAA pilot logbook according to the FAA definitions.

OTOH it is completely improper to log something in your FAA logbook as PIC if it is not PIC as the FAA defines it based on how a potential employer does and can lead to revocation of your pilot certificate. That wouldn't help your employment chances too much either.
 
@SrFnFly227 I do not have a PIC in type. Next trip to simuflite I plan to attain the PIC in type. But as @MidlifeFlyer has stated, I log according to the FAA. And it is not dishonest, when I am the "sole manipulator of the controls" listed under 61.51. I've read countless threads on that issue and don't want to start an argument here. But FYI I have it organized in a way that is easy to separate for various company definitions; electronic log made that easy.
 
Ok, I would like to learn something. I just went though this with our POI, he was very sure and clear that the statement about "for which the pilot is rated" means if you don't have a PIC type then you can't log PIC time. While I agree with most of the other post that say its total time that is important but if you know a way to get around this and log it I would love to know so I can pass it along....we have people that upgrade into the jets before they have 1500TT and they can't get an SIC 135 ride and a PIC 91 type ( really sucks for them know that the rules changed)

91.51:
e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
 
Request said:
Ok, I would like to learn something. I just went though this with our POI, he was very sure and clear that the statement about "for which the pilot is rated" means if you don't have a PIC type then you can't log PIC time.
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That's correct, with some very specific exceptions. As you quoted from the reg, the basic rule is:

A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights- When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated​

If you don't have the rating, whether you are talking about an aircraft that requires a type rating, or single, multi, helicopter, glider, balloon, etc, you can't log PIC based on being the sole manipulator. And, yes, that type rating must be a PIC type rating. (2013 Morgan Interpretation)

The exceptions?

Soloing
A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights- When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft​

Special training program (but note its limitations):
A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights- When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate; [and]
(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on [certain areas of operation]; [and]
(C) The supervising pilot in command holds [a ATP certificate or commercial and CFI certificates with applicable category, class and type ratings; [and];
(D) [The training is properly endorsed]​


​
 
FL350 said:
@SrFnFly227 I do not have a PIC in type
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So then no, you probably shouldn't be logging PIC as you don't have a Type Rating for the aircraft you are operating (assuming it requires a type). Yes, you are sole manipulator, but per 91.51.E.1(i) you don't meet the "for which the pilot is rated" requirement as your type rating limits you to SIC privileges only.
 
BobDDuck said:
So then no, you probably shouldn't be logging PIC as you don't have a Type Rating for the aircraft you are operating (assuming it requires a type). Yes, you are sole manipulator, but per 91.51.E.1(i) you don't meet the "for which the pilot is rated" requirement as your type rating limits you to SIC privileges only.
Click to expand...

Ah darn! I guess I've been misreading other threads / not interpreting this correctly.

@MidlifeFlyer so simply put, since I only have an SIC type in the airplane (yes it requires a type rating and two crew.) I can not log PIC when I am sole manipulator?
 
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