Another insurance question...

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
I'm supposed to give a BFR to a private pilot tomorrow morning. He has his own airplane. He's using me through the flight school that I instruct for (he'll be paying them, etc.). Who's insurance policy covers me? His, the flight schools (which I highly doubt), or none? If none, I probably should refuse the flight, eh? I don't have my own policy.

Thanks in advance for the help.
 
You can ask him to add you as a named insured, and see what coverage his policy may give if he does that.

Your school policy will almost certainly not cover what they do not insure. They insure the aircraft, not you, so nothing good there for ya.

Spend the $270 or whatever it is for a year of coverage from Avemco if you are worried about this. Even him adding you as a named insured may not cover you if you are providing instruction under his policy (which you are during the review).
 
Nah don't refuse the flight - it's not that big of a deal. A while back when I needed a hobby to keep me busy I picked up an insurance license and even though I've never written an aviation policy I will make the following comments - You saked which policy would cover YOU? Cover you from what?? In case of injury? In case you damage the aircraft? Since you are being paid by your employer to conduct flight training in the customer's aircraft you are covered under your employer's workers comp. policy for injury incurred during the normal performance of your duties - that is if you are a 'regular employee' and not instructing for them on a 'contractor' basis which is becoming more and more popular(less expensive for the flight school).

As far as damage to the aircraft - notwithstanding the renter's policy discussed in an earlier thread(more about this later) - the general rule is that you can't insure something that you don't own. Any damage to the aircraft that occurs would be covered by the aircraft owner's policy assuming you meet the open pilot requirements which I'm sure you would if you're a CFI. The only possible liability exposure you may have for damages to aircraft/property/lives is if the owner's insurance carrier tried to recover damages from you because you were in some way negligent in the performance of your duties as a CFI and were a causal factor of the accident/incident. If you're an employee of your flight school their liability policy would likely cover any negligence charges against you. This of course does not consider any charges that may be brought against you in a civil legal matter but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

You'll find that Renter's policies are very narrow in scope and of course only cover the aircraft while you are 'renting' it. It's kind of a difficult concept to wrap your mind around but even if you have a renter's policy it probably wouldn't cover you in this situation.

It of course all depends on the exact circumstances of your situation but my 'professional' opinion would be that you're covered to the hilt and there is no reason whatsoever to refuse the flight.

Jason

PS - Getting your own CFI liability insurance and loss of license insurance is probably not a bad idea.
 
Thanks a lot for the info. guys, just what I was looking for.

I'll just do the flight regardless. If it was a regular student, I'd be more worried about it, but its just going to be a one-time BFR. I was just curious as to how it worked.

[ QUOTE ]
PS - Getting your own CFI liability insurance and loss of license insurance is probably not a bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have loss of license insurance, but I don't really do enough instructing to justify getting my own liability insurance. I mostly just give stage checks, aircraft checkouts, and pick up the slack when things are busy.

Thanks again! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]

You'll find that Renter's policies are very narrow in scope and of course only cover the aircraft while you are 'renting' it. It's kind of a difficult concept to wrap your mind around but even if you have a renter's policy it probably wouldn't cover you in this situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

The Avemco policy I have, is a renter's policy, with an add on to allow you to do just what you are. Be covered in any aircraft you instruct in. Be it at your school, or any old guy on the field who wants a BFR from you. I suspect Jason is not aware of this type of offering per his comments quoted above, but it does fill your exact need, and is pretty cheap. What would you do on this one time only BFR flight, if say, nose tire blows out on a landing, pilot skids off the runway, catches some dirt, nose dips a little, and prop bends up on the ground? Owner will likely want to say "well, this CFI was with me, so it isn't my fault" and lawyers will certainly go after you in this way. If you're independantly wealthy, and not worried about covering any cost of an accident, then by all means, don't get insurance.
 
I highly recommend ANY CFI's out there get their own insurance. It's fairly cheap, covers you for any dual given (below 450 HP, includes multi training, depending on company), and is overall worth it. We are in debt enough, and if you have any assets, it's well worth it.

Yes, the people will probably go after the school, but why take the chance. It's crazy to not cover your a$$, especially when we do what we do.

</rant> Just my thoughts. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Yeah I just loked at Avemco's website - the CFI thing looks like a pretty decent thing to have - I personally think the Aircraft Damage Liability coverages are a bit low - $5,000 (on the lowest price package) may or may not even be enough to pay the deductible on the owner's policy - it surely won't cover very much damage. It always best to buy as much insurance as you can afford for everything but I'd like to point out that the title of that particular coverage is Aircraft Damage LIABILITY - that plain and simple means that you would have to be the direct, causal factor of the damage for that policy to pay. Just because the guy says "There was a CFI with me he's responsible" doesn't necessarily make it so. The tire could blow for a hundred different reasons - a lawyer for the owner's insurance would have to prove it was your fault while a lawyer for your insurance company is triing to prove it wasn't....it would probably be tied up in lawsuits until you're at a major and able to afford to pay it anyway! I was involved in a drunk driving accident(No I wasn't the one drinking /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) 18 months ago and it STILL isn't settled between my insurance company and his.

Jason
 
[ QUOTE ]
a lawyer fro the owner's insurance would have to prove it was your fault while a lawyer for your insurance company is triing to prove it wasn't

[/ QUOTE ]

That right there pays for the insurance itself...not having to pay the lawyers in the lawsuit that WILL happen. All your insurance needs to do is cover the school's deductible and then the school kicks in the rest. Find out what their deductible is and cover yourself. Also, if you do have an opportunity to free-lance then you're covered also.

Not an insurance expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
 
Well, I'm back from this BFR.

CFI's PLEASE don't sign people off if they are questionable or give you a bad vibe. Aviation doesn't need pilots like this guy flying around.

This guy was a complete nut job, and needless to say didn't get his BFR signed off. Details to follow later. I need a beer and its only noon. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
Don't you hate those? We have a few local yokels that scare the bejesus out of you. Enjoy the beer...sounds like you've earned it. After flights like that, my luck usually has me flying the rest of the day so I have to wait for the beer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif
 
OK, so now that I've finished the rest of the day's duties, let me elaborate on this clown. 'Tis a long story, but I'll keep it as short as possible.

First, we do the ground part. I give him a written quiz, and then we go over it and cover some other stuff. Guy takes the quiz, and makes it through, probably around 75% right the first time. So the ground goes OK, except one thing that he says: "Yeah, I took my CFI written a few years ago, but then decided not to persue my CFI because the FAA drug tests instructors." I was like, "whaaaat?!??!" Even the secretary (who overheard it) gave me a WTF glance. I didn't ask for an explanation, though I wish I had.

I give him the outline of what we're going to do for the flight. The usual stuff. When I get to stalls, he stops me by shaking his head and saying, "oooh, I don't like to do stalls in my airplane."

"Well, thats too bad. If you want your BFR, we're going to do them anyways. Its required," says I. I also give him my standard BFR briefing that if he doesn't perform to my satisfaction, I'm going to sign off the flight as a regular dual, and he'll have to get more training before getting the BFR endorsement.

So we go out to do the flight. I'd never seen the plane before because its on a different ramp. I walk out to the plane. Its a 1964 Cherokee 140. If you put it on a truck, took it to an aircraft scrap yard, and threw it in the weeds, it would look right at home. This thing was a TOTAL heap of junk. The paint was original (nearly gone), the interior was orginal (half of the side paneling and instrument panel trim was missing). The thing absolutely reeked inside (partly because the owner doesn't believe in deodorant). Try as I might on the walkaround and during the runup, I couldn't find anything that would render the airplane unairworthy (though I'm sure there was something).

So we take off. The thing sounds like a tractor, and shakes like crazy at first "because it has nylon tires" he says, "and they lose some of their roundness sitting, but get it back after rolling a bit." Whatever. Departing the pattern, UNICOM calls up and tells him that the radio is almost totally unreadable. Go figure.

We do some VOR stuff and I send him to a nearby airport for a landing or two. He's high on final, then gets slow and gets a hella sinkrate going. Slams it right onto the numbers. Strike one.

Off we go again, this time I tell him to depart and go to the practice area. He reduces power at pattern altitude, and climbs out for the next 1500' at 2200 RPM...wtf? After taking forever to climb to 3500, I tell him to give me two 45 deg. steep turns, one left and one right 360. Instead, he goes around 1.5 times to the left at nearly 60 deg. of bank, and then rolls out. I shrug and ask him for some slow flight. Lost 350' in about 1.5 min. I ask for a power off stall. Takes him forever to get it to stall, then when it does, takes him forever to recover...lost nearly 400' from initiation of recovery to positive rate of climb. Strike two.

Climb back up to 3000' and I tell him to head back to the airport. Upon reaching 3000', and overflying a small grass strip, I pull his power out to simulate an engine failure. He goes through a sketchy flow that takes seemingly forever, and then reaches down and says "not sure if I should add flaps or not...[5 seconds of pondering]...well....I guess I will," and proceeds to put in a notch of flaps. STRIKE THREE. I let him go, having to spoon feed him through the rest of the emergency procedures. Meanwhile, our sinkrate is high, and that nice grass strip we were right over is now unreachable behind us and we're over an old arsenal with NO good landings areas.

He would've flown all 20nm back to the airport (over congested areas) at 1800 MSL (800' AGL) if I had let him. Back at the airport, he flies a pattern that would make an examiner •! a brick and once again botches the landing.

As he was tying down, I practically RAN into my chief pilot's office and gave her my opinion. "I am NOT flying with that man, in that airplane, ever again." After explaining everything, she's behind me 110%.

After all this, the guy seems SHOCKED AND AWED when I tell him he needs some work. Tonight, the flight school manager is supposedly taking care of the "dirty work" of telling him that we don't want his business (he had scheduled for tomorrow with me). This wasn't even everything that was messed up about this whole thing, but you get the idea. We've got a base inspection with the FAA tomorrow and are considering getting them involved because of some comments he made (the drug one included), the fact that his logbook was very sketchy- all in pencil and way out of order as far as dates and years, and the fact that it appears he has been flying without a current BFR. Not to mention the plane being a complete $hitbox.

What a morning...Now for the beer, finally. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif
 
Skip the beer, bro. Go right for the hard stuff. How did this guy get his ticket in the first place?
 
Yeah....I really hate giving BFR's sometimes, especially to people who walk in expecting to pass in 1 hour of ground and 1 hour of flight with no problems even though they haven't flown since 1987.

It's even worse when you takeoff from a towered airport.....heck rental checkouts almost make me lose it sometimes....
 
Nice to see that your company backed you up..sucks that you had to experience that..I had an experience similia to that once. I gave a BFR to an older guy, really nice but acted like he was drunk, slurring his speech and talking really slow. I got back to the FBO and I asked the line guy if he knew anything about him, he replied, " I think he had a stroke or soemthing" I was like..huh? Alrightttyy then!
 
Don't hesitate to contact your FSDO about this guy before he kills either himself or someone else.

Let us know what happens.
 
This is absolute proof as to why you need proper insurance coverage. Had this guy flown you into a house and killed a couple of occupants, you could've been embroiled in a nasty lawsuit, with lawyers Monday morning quarterbacking on all the reasons you shouldn't have gone in the air with this guy and claiming your negligence.

Being an insurance agent and consultant who has dealt in aviation policies, let me tell you that aviation insurance is VERY tricky stuff. All the policies are non-standard, meaning each company writes their own language. What this means to you is that if you go from one school to another or switch personal policies or fly with two individuals in their own planes, the only way to know what's covered and not covered is to read each policy and its exclusions! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Very common in coverage for FBO's is to cover the airplanes for hull damage, but reserve the right to subrogate (sue the person found negligent and responsible for the accident). Legally, most policies cannot legally subrogate against an FBO's employees because they are defined in the policy as what is an 'insured.' The problem is that most FBO's now pay their CFI's on a cash basis as an "independent contractor." In this case, you're a separate legal entity from the FBO, and no different from any other regular Joe renting an airplane. So, you can be sued by the insurance company for the cost of damage to the plane, AND for millions in liability and legal expenses if someone's hurt. If your checks from the FBO/school don't withold Soc.Sec., taxes, etc, they're considering you "independent" and chances are, you're not covered, or will have to sue (at your own legal expense) to prove employee status before being considered covered.

So, before I'd jump in a plane with anyone, even in the FBO's planes, I'd ask to get a copy of the company's policy. Copy it and take it home and read it. It can be boring, but you can read most policies in a night or two. If you're at all confused about terms, etc., send me a PM and I'd be glad to help you figure it out.

Better still, is to get your own policy. As has been mentioned, you can get a renter's policy and slap on a CFI endorsement to give you liability and physical damage coverage in other people's aircraft while you're instructing, not renting. Just get a limit high enough to at least cover the deductible of the owner of the plane's policy. In that case you need to know that you'll be covered and not sued for the balance, which leads to the last method of risk management in this situation, contracts.

Don't fly with anyone without having your own "hold harmless" agreement. Draw up a contract which states that the owner of the aircraft agrees to hold you harmless for any liability incurred or damage to the aircraft flown, without regard to negligence or gross negligence on your part. This contract should be signed by the owner of any aircraft in which you instruct, including the FBO for which you do work. It serves as a last line of defense, in case their insurance company tries to subrogate, the insured has signed away their claim and should get you off the hook with minimal legal costs.

To wrap it up, I'd highly disagree with the assessment that "you're covered to the hilt." Most CFI's are flying with their "assets exposed," completely unaware that they're not covered at all by the FBO's policy due to their contractor status.

"Flyer Beware!" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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