Another IFR Question

E

eodfe

New Member
Today I went up to Greeley, CO and got alot of actual IFR time along with two approaches. My question is, I know I should probably know this, but, I received clearance for the ILS 34 at Greeley, I got switched to CTAF, did the approach to a missed, contacted ATC asked for and received permission to do a few turns in the hold over the GIL VOR. ATC gave me a expect further clearance time (I filed to go back to Centennial). The problem I saw was, Greeley and Centennial are only 54 miles apart, there are no airways to Centennial, and there is no VOR at Centennial. I was filed and cleared for Radar Vectors to Centennial. Now if I had lost comms over the GIL VOR, and I departed the hold at the EFC time, what would I do without Radar Vectors to Centennial. You can't just be flying the route you want because that would take you over Denver International and it was at a busy time for them.

So tell me, am I missing something? Did I forget something from my IFR training. This question as me puzzled. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

P.S. If this had happened I would have more than likely went back to Greeley and called them from the ground. (Greeley ceiling was 800-1000 feet and I could have got below the layer and proceded VFR.)
 
When you went missed in variably you were asked by ATC "say your intentions". It sounds like you said you would like to hold at GIL and then do something. What was your clearance when you were then told "radar contact, such-and-such position, you are cleared to hold at the GIL VOR as published and then (you have to fill this in and it will be your answer) , EFC at such-and-such a time."

You should be cleared somewhere if you are in IMC or you should ask for a clearance to somewhere with a hold at GIL But this all goes back to your original flight plan too. Did you file to return to APA?
 
Good question.

I was cleared to Centennial, Radar Vectors Direct, 8000 feet, EFC was fifteen minutes after I entered the hold.

The problem is that I couldn't go direct Centennial IMC since it does not have any VOR......But, I just thought of this one, (long day) it does have an NDB I could have tracked to the IAF for the ILS aproach at Centennial.
 
I would always cringe whenever I heard someone file 'radar vectors' for an IFR flight plan, for the reasons you just stated. If you loose coms, you are screwed.

Even if there is not a VOR on the field, you can usually file from your departure point to a nearby VOR and then get where you need to go. You will then need to look at the approach plates for your destination to find feeder routes before deciding on the route you are going to take. It is usually possible to get where you are going in this manner. Remember that you need to respect the service volumes of the various navaids, such as the NDB you mentioned.

Sometimes you will have to file a flight plan that will take you quite a few miles out of your way, and this is not a problem. If everything works as it should, you will be given radar vectors to a shorter route. But, if you loose coms or have a problem, you will have a flight planned route that will get you to your destination that you can fall back on.
 
After looking at the plates for KAPA, it looks like you would have to find a way from Greeley to the Falcon VOR, as both the ILS and NDB approaches an Centenial use this as a feeder.
 
Can't speak for CO, but here on the east coast we tend to get vectors LOTS. When IMC, the clearance limit is usually an IAF (I'm also /G) so lost comms is just a hassle.

FWIW, the contollers here will tell you that if you're lost comm and at an initial, they want you to shoot the approach ASAP and wait until your EFC time because you wind up clogging the airspace. I don't know if I'd do that, but I understand their position.

-Lostcomm
 
Good advice on the filing. From now on, I'll make sure I file to a VOR that is close to my distination, more than likely I'll get direct but at least I will have a backup plan.

Thanks for your responses.
 
Ok, I figured this out, and please excuse me for being a Dumb&*#. The Denver Four Departure is a Radar Vectors departure, several airports are served by this departure, Greeley being one of these.

LOST COMMS

"IF no transmissions are received within one minute after departure,. MAINTAIN assigned heading until 7000', then climb to filed altitude via direct DEN, thence via assinged transition. If filed altitude is above 10000', cross DEN at or above 11000'."

Since I was cleared to the Centennial airport at 8000', If I lost comms at the EFC time, I should have flown to the DEN VOR and then execute the ILS Approach (full procedure) to APA 35R.

Again,thanks for all your responses.
 
eodfe,

Your experience is a great lesson to think about all the possibilites that go into a flight. We are all trapped by the FAA when they make us adhere to 91.103, we have to be familar with all information regarding our flight. When we come out of our Private training this seems quite easy. But Instrument training seems to be relatively lackluster, IMO, when it comes to things happening not the way they were intended to happen. We all seem to train for the way it is designed to happen but again, the training needs to include the unexpected.

I don't have my plates but it sounds like you found your answer with the DEN4.DEN departure. It also sounds like you would have been looking for that for sometime in the cockpit if you didn't have it ahead of time. One question I had was, how did you file? /A or /U I am assuming.

One thing I bring up to my studs is that this whole business of lost comms is a great idea but if you lose them, what is typically going to be the reason? The answer is a total electrical failure, like a bad alternator. If this is the case you had better hope you have a handheld radio because your VOR won't work, your ADF won't work, your transponder won't be squawking 7600 for long, and your GPS won't work either (this brings up the idea of a handheld, battery powered GPS idea too). Typically, if you are using your plane's clock, you will not longer have your time for your EFC, unless your watch is running. (of course we all know that if you lost your alternator you will have some time to use only the battery.) All this brings up the question, "what if I really had a total electrical failure?" It scares me and when I think of it I realize why personal minimum are so necessary. Those minimums should be based on what backup equipment you have too.
 
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One thing I bring up to my studs is that this whole business of lost comms is a great idea but if you lose them, what is typically going to be the reason? The answer is a total electrical failure, like a bad alternator. If this is the case you had better hope you have a handheld radio because your VOR won't work, your ADF won't work, your transponder won't be squawking 7600 for long, and your GPS won't work either (this brings up the idea of a handheld, battery powered GPS idea too). Typically, if you are using your plane's clock, you will not longer have your time for your EFC, unless your watch is running. (of course we all know that if you lost your alternator you will have some time to use only the battery.) All this brings up the question, "what if I really had a total electrical failure?" It scares me and when I think of it I realize why personal minimum are so necessary. Those minimums should be based on what backup equipment you have too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good points, Ophir. The FAA rules on continuing to furthest clearance, waiting for EFC, etc., etc., etc. are all fine and good as a starting point, but following those rules may not always be the best idea. If you are in IMC, 20 min. from departure and 4 hours from your destination, and your equipment starts to go Tango Uniform, is proceeding another 4 hours in IMC simply to follow FAA rules to abide by your last clearance really a good idea? Probably not, not for you and not for ATC (ATC, after all, has to completely clear out every possible place you might be expected to go until you turn up again).

In such a situation, I would be tempted to make a beeline for VMC (if nearby) or turn around and make for the nearest instrument approach (if nav radios still worked). If your transponder is still working, ATC will quickly figure out what you are doing and make way.

Of course, having a handheld com is about the cheapest insurance you can buy to be sure that you never end up in this situation.

MF
 
[ QUOTE ]
eodfe,

Your experience is a great lesson to think about all the possibilites that go into a flight. We are all trapped by the FAA when they make us adhere to 91.103, we have to be familar with all information regarding our flight. When we come out of our Private training this seems quite easy. But Instrument training seems to be relatively lackluster, IMO, when it comes to things happening not the way they were intended to happen. We all seem to train for the way it is designed to happen but again, the training needs to include the unexpected.

I don't have my plates but it sounds like you found your answer with the DEN4.DEN departure. It also sounds like you would have been looking for that for sometime in the cockpit if you didn't have it ahead of time. One question I had was, how did you file? /A or /U I am assuming.

One thing I bring up to my studs is that this whole business of lost comms is a great idea but if you lose them, what is typically going to be the reason? The answer is a total electrical failure, like a bad alternator. If this is the case you had better hope you have a handheld radio because your VOR won't work, your ADF won't work, your transponder won't be squawking 7600 for long, and your GPS won't work either (this brings up the idea of a handheld, battery powered GPS idea too). Typically, if you are using your plane's clock, you will not longer have your time for your EFC, unless your watch is running. (of course we all know that if you lost your alternator you will have some time to use only the battery.) All this brings up the question, "what if I really had a total electrical failure?" It scares me and when I think of it I realize why personal minimum are so necessary. Those minimums should be based on what backup equipment you have too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said! I was filed as /A

You brought up some really valid and scary points about flying IMC in a single engine airplane. I think I will be purchasing a handheld Nav/Comm real soon.

On the way back to Centennial I was thinking about emergencies in IMC and one of my thoughts was dropping below the clouds to find VMC, but down below through a hole I saw one of the high towers that are around the Erie area; so it made me think again about getting below the layer.
 
Yeah, those are scary points to bring up. I teach my studs to do a complete Wx brief and know where the best place to find VMC will be. I go by the adage: "It is better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground." That is an old hang gliding moto.

The one thing that gets me about handheld radios is that I use mine to pick up clearances every once in awhile and Clearance Delivery can barely hear me on the other side of the field! I don't trust them really. The best thing to have is a hand held GPS like the Garmin 196 or 296 that has an HSI and rate of turn indicator. Me thinks

Eodfe, it sounds to me that if I were you and I was in the hold at GIL and experienced loss comms, I would assess the reason I lost them and then head right back to that approach in to Greely you just made. It sounds like it was right there. Again, get into VMC where you know it is going be. If you were squawking 7600 and flying an approach ATC will clear it out for you. They may ask you to write a report but that is where 91.3 comes in. You were breaking regs so as to meet the requirements of an emergency. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
What's up with Denver and doing that? Almost this exact thing happened between ASE and GJT. We'd departed VFR to GJT, but decided to air-file IFR due to some deteriorating weather. Denver told us "Cleared to Grand Junction airport via radar vectors, climb and maintain 14,000, etc." I don't feel very comfortable with flying over mountainous terrain in actual on a heading alone (even if we did have a decent altitude), so I asked for a vector to V134. No dice...they just got annoyed and repeated their last instruction.
 
Good thread ... alot of very well thought out and stated point.

My .02 worth

1. The purpose of an IFR flight plan is to communicate your intentions to ATC in the event of lost commo. It is what they are expecting you to do.

2. Because of # 1 I always make my last route of flight point an IAF for the approach I expect to do at my destination.

3. If lost comm. and you are following your flight plan and you encounter VMC ... Land. Again ATC would expect this and besides you are most likely still in Radar contact and ATC can easily decipher your actions as such.

4. Personall minimums can't be over stated. Flying a single engine without redundant systems in ( widespread ) low IFR is asking for trouble, just because its legall doesn't make it smart. I know there are those who will ask then how does a pilot gain IFR experience ... I would say to them very carefully. One can still log quality IFR experience while managing risks wisely.

Jim
 
Box 3 on the FAA Flight Plan Form asks for the aircraft type and equipment suffix. The suffix gives ATC some pertinent information about your plane's equipment and capabilities.

Special Equipment Suffix:
X: No transponder
T: Transponder with no Mode C
U: Transponder with Mode C
D: DME, no transponder
B: DME, Transponder with no Mode C
A: DME, Transponder with Mode C
Y: RNAV, no transponder
C: RNAV, transponder with Mode C
I: RNAV, transponder with Mode C
G: GPS with en route and terminal capability

For example, a Cessna 310 with DME and Mode C transponder would be: C310/A

AOPA Flight Planner Form
 
Hey Jim, how ya been? Let me know if you get back to SLC anytime soon.

I was going to bring that point up. It amazes me that I have logged about 30hrs of actual and that is all single engine. What amazes me is that I realize now what could have gone wrong. Of course what you don't know will kill you but at the same time what you do know will make you safe and return home to try it all again some other day.

In flying multi engine light twins you begin to see what redundancies are built into those aircraft. The answer is very few but they are a few more than in single engine aircraft. The bottomline is that things you don't expect to happen can and will happen. Do your best to ask questions of your CFI to learn what to expect and therefore you limit your risk. But understand that most IFR flying is done by multi engine turbine a/c that have a bunch of back up systems and more importantly back up power. (this is really pertinant to me here in SLC because the lowest MEA out of here is 8000. If I want to go anywhere I can expect 13000.)

I believe flying IFR in a single if ok if:
<ul type="square"> You aren't in known icing
You have a considerable cieling below you to break into VFR in the event of an engine failure
You have back up systems including battery powered navigation and comms
You have available power left in your a/c to climb if need be
You are current!
[/list]

feel free to build on this list /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I figured this out, and please excuse me for being a Dumb&amp;*#. The Denver Four Departure is a Radar Vectors departure, several airports are served by this departure, Greeley being one of these.

LOST COMMS

"IF no transmissions are received within one minute after departure,. MAINTAIN assigned heading until 7000', then climb to filed altitude via direct DEN, thence via assinged transition. If filed altitude is above 10000', cross DEN at or above 11000'."

Since I was cleared to the Centennial airport at 8000', If I lost comms at the EFC time, I should have flown to the DEN VOR and then execute the ILS Approach (full procedure) to APA 35R.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just because the departure exist and you are lost coms does not mean you should fly the departure. If you want to fly it, file it. The whole point of all the lost com procedures is so that ATC will know what you are doing. If you were not cleared for something and did not file it, they have no idea what you are going to do.
 
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